[Chateau-L]

NOOOOO this topic will most likely be burned into a fiery red envelope that it is by the unavoidable flaming..

but before it starts-

I'm using PC because
- Gaming
- Programs
- Have used it for a long time

It's really simple.

Oh and yah you can bypass some things on a Mac for running certain things, but LOL you can't run 90 % of the world still... I'd go crazy when I see something that says 'windows only' >_>

[Magical]

Most windows products have a similar app for Mac...

[Poetic Minds]

Mac's are better than PC's, just like this suit is black...NOT.

[Ice]

computers are not just for games.

Doesnt that depend on what you like doing, of course if i liked editing videos and playing with cs2 id probably be better off with a mac but i'd rather be playing cod4 or somthing.

[Caboose]

Saying Mac vs. PC is like askinng, "d o you eat your sandwich on bread or a slice of bread?" Macs are still PCs, because PC stands for Personal Computer. Now then--I prefer Windows boxes for overall compatibility. Macs are ridiculous when it comes to upgrades, so they lose my vote. On the other hand, the only Mac I liike is the Mac Mini, which makes a nice small and thin box.

And now you don't even need that

This is one way to open a can of worms...

Too lazy to retype what I've said before on past Mac vs PC topics. Here's what I've said in one PM with Tabarnak about Mac vs PC.

Apple's software is very good - admit it. And I named the entry level programs. There's higher photo editing programs such as Aperture, and Final Cut for movies - both used by many professionals. At the Beijing Olympics, photographers had use of nearly two dozen Mac Pro's with Aperture on them and were blown away by them, and many considered buying a Mac after that. The simplicity and functionality of Apple's products was top notch. As a side note, Adobe designs their programs for the Mac, too.

Open source always has a chance of surpassing main stream programs. But the average user (and the majority of computers are such) will use programs they purchase from a store, or have it come with their computer. So, many users of Windows will not have fully-capable photo, music and movie editors built into them. They will go out and have to spend additional money, whereas Mac owners will not.

It does come down to personal preference. But still, saying that most people are fanboys is wrong. There is a portion of Apple's customers that are fanboys and I get pissed that them the same you do. They bring down our image. They make it look like Apple's customer-base is only fanboys who want their Apple products. A good number of Apple's customers are professionals and business people looking for quality products. There are then the general users who enjoy their Macs but don't go parading down Main Street proclaiming that Macs are amazing and anyone using Windows is an idiot. Unfortunately, there is a small percentage of Apple product users that do exactly that. We all sort of shun them - trust me.

Their customer base has also been rated the best out of the main companies by independent companies. Any company will tell you when your warranty expired. Apple is no different - they are a business not a charity. AppleCare is an investment people can make if they want, same as PC companies offer extended warranties. Apple's customer service has been very helpful when we've had to phone them with questions regarding purchases, etc.

I'll add in more and quote other people as this topic progresses.

Please, keep the fanboy crap out of here, though, okay? Can we actually get past page two this time without starting a riot? :x

~Bcloutier~

The majority of that post was centred around the software you can use on it. Let's ignore for a minute the fact that i for one use Open Source software (Sumo Paint, for one) that i for one think surpasses the mainstream software in almost every way, and concentrate on what you said. Default programs, i believe was your main point. Well, as i just mentioned there are Open Source programs but still, WMM is a decent bit of kit for amateur video editing, and if you're really good it can look quite professional. And have you seen the Paint in Windows 7?

And then you talked about the software you can buy, which is irrelivant since every notable program has a Windows port.

And customer service. From what i've heard Microsoft Customer Service are shizzle. But i can't really imagine why you would call Microsoft, and in every situation i can tell you how to curcumvent the telephone altogether by using their website. In that respect at least, every time i've used Customer Surport (which wasn't actually to do with my PC (please Bob, don't criticise me for wrong use of an acronym )) it's been brilliant. Besides, you only ever need to use Customer Surport if there's a problem

[Haleth]

There we go again, lol.

I use mac atm, it's good, but for the things I do on my computer there's not much of a difference between mac and pc. I might build a gaming PC with windows 7 on it in a year or so.

[gabtdw]

I'm gonna offer my 1.25829 pence in the form of a good old fashioned roundup.

Apple Macs
In the matt aluminium/white->yellow plastic corner, we have the Mac. By far the most common iteration of this is the MacBook: its earlier generations were made from white plastic which turns yellow if you use it with sweaty hands, and shiny patches appear on the mousepad (itself a good invention, but there is multitouch on some other trackpads and a proper right click); there is also an aluminium, thinner one with a bigger trackpad and.. oh wait, that's all it has to offer. The only size it comes in is 13.3", a bit big to carry with you everywhere in one hand but still a good size, but its little sister, the MacBook Air, is truly astounding, the thinnest laptop in the world (..oh no, look at MSI, and the 1 USB port (what the utter hell?)). Each of these runs on old hardware (9400M.. lol), stifling innovation. Also, it costs £80 to upgrade from 2gb to 4gb RAM and £720 to upgrade from a 160gb HDD to a 256GB SSD. There exists also the MacBrick Pro, which is slightly larger and runs on the same hardware as the top MacBook, unless you spend an extra £200 for a slightly newer CPU and graphics chip.

Then we move over to the desktop segment. First we'll look at the Mac Mini, a dainty little morsel of Apple. The base spec isn't quite as good as the base MacBook, but it is a lot smaller, and it doesn't have a screen (quite an important thing to have), so you either find a cheaper screen or spend £635 on a 24" Apple one - that's about as much as the Gateway XHD3000 30" if you do the conversion. The Mac Pro is simply ridiculous - the flagship offering has no prospect of SSD (or OCZ z-drive?) and the best graphics availible is one RHD4870, oh, and an extra CD drive will set you back 80 squids. And finally, the iMac: this actually offers the best performance to pound ratio but £880 to upgrade from 2gb to 8gb of RAM? No SSDs in sight? On the lower end, the same graphics chip as the laptop? It's high end desktop prices for laptop performance.

Now I have covered the actual computers, I must mention a few things common to all of them: the mouse; the keyboard; the software. The mouse/keyboard are simply awful and totally unusable. I don't know about the Mac-fanboys/people-who-use-Macs among us, but I can tell you that when I press a button, I like to know I've pressed it, and if I don't think I have, I press it again. If I had to use a Mighty Mouse daily, using my computer would not be an 'enjoyable experience (like using a power tool is enjoyable)' but a constant annoyance. The keyboard also provides little feedback to those who have pressed on it, so it's like drumming your fingers on a table. I think Apple have put looks before usability here, and they always have: I remember a perfectly circular Apple mouse from an iMac running OS8 (which broke several times) and a keyboard which was the total opposite of today's and took a hammer stroke to press the keys (which, consequently, broke constantly).

Mac OS X Leopard is fine, and it's mostly a matter of taste as to who likes it. I can see how it is user friendly and it 'just works', but fewer games work on it and the Mac ports aren't as good - they certainly won't run as well as on a better PC. I'm also not keen on Expose, and the dock doesn't come close to Windows 7's taskbar.

Windows PCs
In the beige, black, silver, red, green, blue, acrylic, stainless steel, polished steel, painted steel, carbon-fiber, glass, wooden, shiny aluminium, matt aluminium, anodized aluminium, plain aluminium, powder coated, spray painted, whatever-the-hell-you-want-it-to-be-made-of corner is the Windows PC. PCs, I believe, truly allow people to express their individuality, and PCs prove that people are inventive. The Windows PC is more versatile than a Mac: with a Mac you are limited to one design, one set of hardware and one set of values; PCs, however, range from the boring Dell Optiplex workstations to the Asus Eee keyboard PC and the HP TouchSmart series.

It's impossible to round-up every 'PC' as there are so many to choose from. That doesn't mean it's nescesarily hard to choose what you want to buy - you may simply want an HP Pavillion desktop (nice and simple) or you may know you want a Sony Vaio media centre PC (incidently about the same size as a Mac Mini but with more slots and a TV tuner and a keyboard with touchpad and a slightly better pricetag for the performance). You may also want to build your own, in which case you have a vast selection of cases (Antec, Thermaltake, even bloody MountainMods), many motherboards with different numbers of different ports to suit your individual need and with room for expansion, different CPUs, different graphics cards and manufacturers of RAM (all priced in real world prices) (I have 2 sticks of OCZ 'Special Ops Camo' RAM in my desktop in camo colours with a neat heatsink , not to mention cool things like sound cards and KillerNICs, as well as potential for case lighting and huge networks of water pipes to cool your graphics card. Granted, some of these possibilities cost more than a Mac (except my RAM), but aren't they cool (no pun intended)?

Overall, there are more applications (therefore more choice) for Windows and we have better hardware possibilities (and worse ones, but for cheaper - why spend more for something slightly better if you don't need it?) such as touch screens, so I go with PC for the choice.


I'm expecting a long post about how Macs are more secure than Windows, so hit me.

This post has been edited by Earlofvarrok: May 25 2009, 07:17 AM

[Magical]

Put it this way, I'd rather only have two choices of design that looked like this:


than this in every shade I wanted.

In the matt aluminium/white->yellow plastic corner, we have the Mac. By far the most common iteration of this is the MacBook: its earlier generations were made from white plastic which turns yellow if you use it with sweaty hands,

And the earlier generations of PCs were so much better?

The only size it comes in is 13.3"

Guess you're forgetting the 17" MacBook Pro.

Then we move over to the desktop segment. First we'll look at the Mac Mini, a dainty little morsel of Apple. The base spec isn't quite as good as the base MacBook, but it is a lot smaller, and it doesn't have a screen (quite an important thing to have), so you either find a cheaper screen or spend £635 on a 24" Apple one - that's about as much as the Gateway XHD3000 30" if you do the conversion.

Well then go and spend £30 on a dell one...

I must mention a few things common to all of them: the mouse; the keyboard; the software. The mouse/keyboard are simply awful and totally unusable. I don't know about the Mac-fanboys/people-who-use-Macs among us, but I can tell you that when I press a button, I like to know I've pressed it, and if I don't think I have, I press it again.

And who on earth uses the default mouse that comes with their PC? It's not like you can't get a new mouse - and in terms of what they are they're actually quite good. I don't know what you're on about the keyboard, or the mouse? In fact you've complete lost me about knowing if you've pressed a button...

If I had to use a Mighty Mouse daily, using my computer would not be an 'enjoyable experience (like using a power tool is enjoyable)' but a constant annoyance.

You're complaining about a computer because of the mouse? Do you want me to take a picture of the default mouse that came with my PC?

The keyboard also provides little feedback to those who have pressed on it, so it's like drumming your fingers on a table.

Well firstly, things appear on the screen - that normally gives you feedback to whether it's working or not...

I think Apple have put looks before usability here, and they always have: I remember a perfectly circular Apple mouse from an iMac running OS8 (which broke several times) and a keyboard which was the total opposite of today's and took a hammer stroke to press the keys (which, consequently, broke constantly).

I've had no problems with my keyboard, and I don't think it's really fair to talk about OSs and keyboards from years ago.

Mac OS X Leopard is fine, and it's mostly a matter of taste as to who likes it. I can see how it is user friendly and it 'just works', but fewer games work on it and the Mac ports aren't as good - they certainly won't run as well as on a better PC. I'm also not keen on Expose, and the dock doesn't come close to Windows 7's taskbar.

You seem to have spent a long time on the tech specs, but not very long on the OS. Most people neither understand or care about the specs... I find Mac OS X incredibly easy and fun to use.

I find the dock amazing and incredibly useful and the W7 taskbar just seems a worsened copy of the dock...

[gabtdw]

Put it this way, I'd rather only have two choices of design that looked like this:


than this in every shade I wanted.

What about the Dells with different skins in different patterns? Or the HP Vivienne Tam edition? Or the Asus U6V Bamboo?

In the matt aluminium/white->yellow plastic corner, we have the Mac. By far the most common iteration of this is the MacBook: its earlier generations were made from white plastic which turns yellow if you use it with sweaty hands,

And the earlier generations of PCs were so much better?

As far as I'm aware, they're still shipping a plastic version of this gen of MacBooks...

The only size it comes in is 13.3"

Guess you're forgetting the 17" MacBook Pro.

I haven't seen a 17" MacBook because they haven't made one. The MBP is a different segment.

Then we move over to the desktop segment. First we'll look at the Mac Mini, a dainty little morsel of Apple. The base spec isn't quite as good as the base MacBook, but it is a lot smaller, and it doesn't have a screen (quite an important thing to have), so you either find a cheaper screen or spend £635 on a 24" Apple one - that's about as much as the Gateway XHD3000 30" if you do the conversion.

Well then go and spend £30 on a dell one...

It's still outrageous that they have such a thing on offer at such a high price.

I must mention a few things common to all of them: the mouse; the keyboard; the software. The mouse/keyboard are simply awful and totally unusable. I don't know about the Mac-fanboys/people-who-use-Macs among us, but I can tell you that when I press a button, I like to know I've pressed it, and if I don't think I have, I press it again.

And who on earth uses the default mouse that comes with their PC? It's not like you can't get a new mouse - and in terms of what they are they're actually quite good. I don't know what you're on about the keyboard, or the mouse? In fact you've complete lost me about knowing if you've pressed a button...

When I press a button on my keyboard, I feel the resistance of the key as I press it and I hear the reassuring click of the key as it is pressed down; and when I click my mouse I feel and hear the click as it is pressed.

If I had to use a Mighty Mouse daily, using my computer would not be an 'enjoyable experience (like using a power tool is enjoyable)' but a constant annoyance.

You're complaining about a computer because of the mouse? Do you want me to take a picture of the default mouse that came with my PC?

Mostly they're fine, I haven't upgraded the mouse (standard HP ball mouse) on my desktop and the Dell ones are alright.

The keyboard also provides little feedback to those who have pressed on it, so it's like drumming your fingers on a table.

Well firstly, things appear on the screen - that normally gives you feedback to whether it's working or not...

Yes, but the buttons don't make any noise.

I think Apple have put looks before usability here, and they always have: I remember a perfectly circular Apple mouse from an iMac running OS8 (which broke several times) and a keyboard which was the total opposite of today's and took a hammer stroke to press the keys (which, consequently, broke constantly).

I've had no problems with my keyboard, and I don't think it's really fair to talk about OSs and keyboards from years ago.

It's just proof that they've always valued different things in a mouse/keyboard.

Mac OS X Leopard is fine, and it's mostly a matter of taste as to who likes it. I can see how it is user friendly and it 'just works', but fewer games work on it and the Mac ports aren't as good - they certainly won't run as well as on a better PC. I'm also not keen on Expose, and the dock doesn't come close to Windows 7's taskbar.

You seem to have spent a long time on the tech specs, but not very long on the OS. Most people neither understand or care about the specs... I find Mac OS X incredibly easy and fun to use.

I find the dock amazing and incredibly useful and the W7 taskbar just seems a worsened copy of the dock...

So using the awkward right click on one of the dock icons and pressing a small menu item is better than having a list of thumbnail previews appear with the window title to help you switch to your window easier and without thinking along with all the colour glows around selected icons, moving glows around icons of running programs when you move your mouse and the glass effects, along with an easy place to get to your programs in a list form that isn't on the taskbar?

This post has been edited by Earlofvarrok: May 25 2009, 08:22 AM

[_Ej]

I would kill for a mac, the price tag is just too much though. I'd have one over a Pc, because you have all the wonderfulness (is that a word?) of a mac, with the ability to use windows programs on bootcamp. If windows could run OSX in a similar way to bootcamp, then I would happily sacrifice the great looks of the mac to keep save a lot of money. Its more the OS than the actual machine that I like.

[Magical]

Put it this way, I'd rather only have two choices of design that looked like this:


than this in every shade I wanted.

What about the Dells with different skins in different patterns? Or the HP Vivienne Tam edition? Or the Asus U6V Bamboo?

That was the first Apple image I came to, that was the same PC image I came to.

The only size it comes in is 13.3"

Guess you're forgetting the 17" MacBook Pro.

I haven't seen a 17" MacBook because they haven't made one. The MBP is a different segment.

Yes, you didn't mention a 17" at all, making it sound as if they only went up to 13.3"...

Then we move over to the desktop segment. First we'll look at the Mac Mini, a dainty little morsel of Apple. The base spec isn't quite as good as the base MacBook, but it is a lot smaller, and it doesn't have a screen (quite an important thing to have), so you either find a cheaper screen or spend £635 on a 24" Apple one - that's about as much as the Gateway XHD3000 30" if you do the conversion.

Well then go and spend £30 on a dell one...

It's still outrageous that they have such a thing on offer at such a high price.

Yes, but it looks like it just fell off a B&O delivery truck....

I must mention a few things common to all of them: the mouse; the keyboard; the software. The mouse/keyboard are simply awful and totally unusable. I don't know about the Mac-fanboys/people-who-use-Macs among us, but I can tell you that when I press a button, I like to know I've pressed it, and if I don't think I have, I press it again.

And who on earth uses the default mouse that comes with their PC? It's not like you can't get a new mouse - and in terms of what they are they're actually quite good. I don't know what you're on about the keyboard, or the mouse? In fact you've complete lost me about knowing if you've pressed a button...

When I press a button on my keyboard, I feel the resistance of the key as I press it and I hear the reassuring click of the key as it is pressed down; and when I click my mouse I feel and hear the click as it is pressed.

I can hear every single click I make as well..

The keyboard also provides little feedback to those who have pressed on it, so it's like drumming your fingers on a table.

Well firstly, things appear on the screen - that normally gives you feedback to whether it's working or not...

Yes, but the buttons don't make any noise.

They do after a week or so But I never look at the keys anyway so not a problem for me.

Mac OS X Leopard is fine, and it's mostly a matter of taste as to who likes it. I can see how it is user friendly and it 'just works', but fewer games work on it and the Mac ports aren't as good - they certainly won't run as well as on a better PC. I'm also not keen on Expose, and the dock doesn't come close to Windows 7's taskbar.

You seem to have spent a long time on the tech specs, but not very long on the OS. Most people neither understand or care about the specs... I find Mac OS X incredibly easy and fun to use.

I find the dock amazing and incredibly useful and the W7 taskbar just seems a worsened copy of the dock...

So using the awkward right click on one of the dock icons and pressing a small menu item is better than having a list of thumbnail previews appear with the window title to help you switch to your window easier and without thinking along with all the colour glows around selected icons, moving glows around icons of running programs when you move your mouse and the glass effects, along with an easy place to get to your programs in a list form that isn't on the taskbar?

Switching to another window is easy, I either click on the app button or press ⌘left, right etc. If I want to find or open an application, I hit ⌘return and type in the app using spotlight. Or I can press ⌘⌥return and view it from a list using Todos. You can set your Mac to display any image you want under an open app so that you know it's in use... I really don't see how I need any more than that.

[adrenalsky]

Ok here's a stupid question......

I already know you can run pretty much any Mac OS on windows (dual boot) and vice versa....

Can you uninstall Windows on your PC and Install Mac osx Or even Leapord on a PC with out windows?

If you can wouldn't this do away with the Price of the machine argument? And it would make the stability of your OS argument go away to right? Correct me IF i'm wrong but this doesn't seem impossable(spelling).

I know alot of people that Dual Boot there pc's but what about just running Mac as the sole OS on your PC?

This post has been edited by adrenalsky: May 25 2009, 09:53 AM

[Caboose]

Put it this way, I'd rather only have two choices of design that looked like this:


than this in every shade I wanted.

In the matt aluminium/white->yellow plastic corner, we have the Mac. By far the most common iteration of this is the MacBook: its earlier generations were made from white plastic which turns yellow if you use it with sweaty hands,

And the earlier generations of PCs were so much better?

The only size it comes in is 13.3"

Guess you're forgetting the 17" MacBook Pro.

Then we move over to the desktop segment. First we'll look at the Mac Mini, a dainty little morsel of Apple. The base spec isn't quite as good as the base MacBook, but it is a lot smaller, and it doesn't have a screen (quite an important thing to have), so you either find a cheaper screen or spend £635 on a 24" Apple one - that's about as much as the Gateway XHD3000 30" if you do the conversion.

Well then go and spend £30 on a dell one...

I must mention a few things common to all of them: the mouse; the keyboard; the software. The mouse/keyboard are simply awful and totally unusable. I don't know about the Mac-fanboys/people-who-use-Macs among us, but I can tell you that when I press a button, I like to know I've pressed it, and if I don't think I have, I press it again.

And who on earth uses the default mouse that comes with their PC? It's not like you can't get a new mouse - and in terms of what they are they're actually quite good. I don't know what you're on about the keyboard, or the mouse? In fact you've complete lost me about knowing if you've pressed a button...

If I had to use a Mighty Mouse daily, using my computer would not be an 'enjoyable experience (like using a power tool is enjoyable)' but a constant annoyance.

You're complaining about a computer because of the mouse? Do you want me to take a picture of the default mouse that came with my PC?

The keyboard also provides little feedback to those who have pressed on it, so it's like drumming your fingers on a table.

Well firstly, things appear on the screen - that normally gives you feedback to whether it's working or not...

I think Apple have put looks before usability here, and they always have: I remember a perfectly circular Apple mouse from an iMac running OS8 (which broke several times) and a keyboard which was the total opposite of today's and took a hammer stroke to press the keys (which, consequently, broke constantly).

I've had no problems with my keyboard, and I don't think it's really fair to talk about OSs and keyboards from years ago.

Mac OS X Leopard is fine, and it's mostly a matter of taste as to who likes it. I can see how it is user friendly and it 'just works', but fewer games work on it and the Mac ports aren't as good - they certainly won't run as well as on a better PC. I'm also not keen on Expose, and the dock doesn't come close to Windows 7's taskbar.

You seem to have spent a long time on the tech specs, but not very long on the OS. Most people neither understand or care about the specs... I find Mac OS X incredibly easy and fun to use.

I find the dock amazing and incredibly useful and the W7 taskbar just seems a worsened copy of the dock...

Responses (in order):

Why the hell would you want that design? Besides, have you even seen the Vaio?

Yes, i still have a trusty old beige PC case and it looks pretty much exactly the same as the day it was new.

17" is far too big for a laptop. I know too many people who just put laptops on desks and use it as a PC.

Okay, i will.

I use the default keyboard and mouse that came with my Presario Desktop. Comfortable, enough buttons and above all, free.

Yes, the mouse that comes with it isn't comfortable. The mice that come with PCs are. You can't ignore this point, as it's exactly the same as debating about default software.

It's not the actual outcome, it's the feeling. If you do use one of those infa red keyboards on a table all day, your fingers will hurt. This is what's wrong with Apple keyboards.

Reminiscing is fair. But the first point is valid, Apple do put looks before functionality. Strange, because they don't even look that good...

That just isn't true. Whenever i use a Mac the dock always seems wrong, out of place. Still, the first computer i remember using was running Windows 3, so i may be a bit bias on this.

[Magical]

Why the hell would you want that design? Besides, have you even seen the Vaio?

You've seen the Vaio and the Macbook and you still want the Vaio? I didn't even release their looks were debatable.

17" is far too big for a laptop. I know too many people who just put laptops on desks and use it as a PC.

If it's too big for you, don't buy it. If you want a laptop for on the go you buy an Air, if you want anything smaller go and buy a Netbook.

I use the default keyboard and mouse that came with my Presario Desktop. Comfortable, enough buttons and above all, free.

And the keyboard for Macs are in my opinion comfortable and free.

Yes, the mouse that comes with it isn't comfortable. The mice that come with PCs are. You can't ignore this point, as it's exactly the same as debating about default software.

I've found the opposite.

It's not the actual outcome, it's the feeling. If you do use one of those infa red keyboards on a table all day, your fingers will hurt. This is what's wrong with Apple keyboards.

I much prefer a flat keyboard like the Apple ones, and I've never got pains in my wrists

Reminiscing is fair. But the first point is valid, Apple do put looks before functionality. Strange, because they don't even look that good...

I'm sorry - if you think a Sony Vaio looks better than the new MacBooks I really feel you're blind.

That just isn't true. Whenever i use a Mac the dock always seems wrong, out of place. Still, the first computer i remember using was running Windows 3, so i may be a bit bias on this.

Why does the dock feel wrong?

[Caboose]

You can't possibly think that the Vaio looks worse than a Macbook. That's just wrong...

And the dock feels wrong because it's just sticking out of nowhere.

[Magical]

You can't possibly think that the Vaio looks worse than a Macbook. That's just wrong...

And the dock feels wrong because it's just sticking out of nowhere.

Just sticking out of nowhere? You can chose 12 positions, make it auto hide, change its look etc. I fail to see how the start menu looks any different on a PC. I don't know how you can think the Vaio looks better...

[Caboose]

The Start Menu has nothing to do with this... besides, that's only there when you want it to be and it's very functional when it is. You can customize the toolbar just as much, but the dock is just chunky and doesn't fit with anything.







One's sleek, colorful and nice to look at. The other is grey, chunky and to put it bluntly, exactly the same shape as a pizza box:

[Magical]

Sorry, the Vaios just look blunt and ugly in my opinion, especially the desktops.

[Caboose]

I really don't see how. They're simply... grey boxes. There's nothing else to it.

[Cattius]

Personally I prefer non-Mac products (i.e. Windows or Linux systems - it's already been pointed out that Macs are PCs as well, which is why I'm not using the term PC). I have two main reasons for this decision:

1) PRICING. Macs are VERY overpriced. VERY. To illustrate this point I took the entry-level 20-inch iMac, which costs £949 here in the UK, and tried to build a Windows system that would better it for the same price or less. I could have probably tried a little harder here - I only spent a few minutes - but it gets the point across.

iMac
20 inch monitor
2.66Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR3 memory
320GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
(CD-RW and DVD-RW writer)
Nvidia Geforce 9400M
Mac OS X Leopard
TOTAL COST: £949 (about US $1510)

Custom Windows Build
22 inch monitor
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83Ghz
8GB DDR2 memory
2 x 500GB hard drives
22x double-layer CD-RW and DVD-RW writer
Nvidia Geforce 1GB 9800GT
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit
TOTAL COST: £910 (about US $1448)

OK, first, please don't say that you could build that Windows machine more cheaply. I know you can, but I just put that spec together quickly. Also bear in mind that technology is considerably more expensive in the UK than in the US, and that that price was not a DIY computer price (i.e. buying all the components separately), rather it is a quote from a site I know that allows pretty heavy customization of each machine they sell.

Anyway, onto the specs. The Windows build has a considerable performance advantage with a faster processor (2.83Ghz as opposed to 2.66), two extra processor cores and an extra 6GB of RAM. I realise that the Mac uses GDDR3 RAM and the Windows machine uses DDR2, but all the performance tests I have seen illustrate that there is very little performance difference between the two types. It seems stupid for Apple to have a £900 desktop with 2GB of RAM when most decent-priced laptops come with 4GB these days. The Windows build also has much better graphics performance with the 9800GT instead of the 9400M (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not sure about this, but doesn't that M on the Mac graphics card define it as a graphics card for laptops? If it does, that seems a bit cheap, putting laptop components in a desktop. It's the sort of thing you'd expect in a £300 PC, not a £900 one). The 9800 isn't the greatest card out there, but it'll still do the job far better than the 9400.

The Windows build has an extra 680GB of storage space, meaning lots more space for music, photos, movies and whatnot. Plus there's two drives instead of one, which can be helpful if one of your drives fails. There's an extra 2 inches of monitor space, which doesn't sound much, but makes a big difference if you frequently do several things at once. Finally, the CD- and DVD-writer can write at a much faster speed than the Mac's SuperDrive.

To conclude, the Windows build will be an all-round better performer and yes, the Mac is incredibly overpriced for what it is.

2) COMPATIBILITY. Because Macs have a much smaller market share, there are much fewer programs written for them. I have plenty of programs on my Windows laptop now that I use daily, which I know have no Mac equivalent. And although some games have a Mac version, most don't. Before you scream Bootcamp at me, I do realise that you can run Windows on a Mac. But that sort of defeats the point of buying a Mac, doesn't it? Besides - Bootcamp requires a Windows installation disk and product key. If you want Vista and you haven't got a spare copy, then you're talking about an extra £70 added on to the overall cost. That's yet more money that you will have to fork out!

So that's why I use Windows.

Can you uninstall Windows on your PC and Install Mac osx Or even Leapord on a PC with out windows?

Yes, it is entirely possible to buy a copy of OS X Leopard from Apple and install it on a non-Apple desktop or laptop. The resulting computer is sometimes nicknamed a 'Hackintosh'. However, this can be extremely difficult. A lot of Windows-compatible hardware isn't compatible with the Mac, and often BIOS settings have to be changed. There is plenty of information on the internet about this, but I cannot give you links as this subject lies on very shady ground (you are voiding the Apple software agreement).

17" is far too big for a laptop. I know too many people who just put laptops on desks and use it as a PC.

I have a 17-inch laptop which I use for around 3-4 hours a day. I normally use it with a stand to keep it cool, but it sits perfectly comfortably on my lap without one. The large screen is brilliant for playing games, watching movies and multitasking.

And finally, in response to the battle going on with Magical and Caboose above:

With a desktop looks aren't very important. If it looks ugly, just shove it under a desk and never even look at it unless you have to turn it on. Works a treat for me

With laptops looks are a bit more important, but I would rather have an ugly looking thing with great performance than a thin, sleek laptop that looked great but couldn't cope with multitasking and games.

But if looks are such an issue, you can pay a bit extra for a Windows desktop/laptop that looks very good. Bamboo or colour plating, coloured lights, fancy desktop cases, and ultra-thin laptops can all be found in the Windows sector.