I was just wondering whether the Sal’s admins were thinking on how to get their clan community back. It's pretty obvious they got K0ed by the new SalsCD. The question now is: are they willing to chin up and fight another round? Or, is this R.I.P. for the Sal's clan section?

Frankly, giving them a Sectional Mod doesn’t sound like a bad idea.

Not only would they need a sectional mod, but they would probably have to wipe the slate clean with the number of banned forum users.

Frankly, I don't think Sal's benefited much from the clan forum, as few clanners ventured out from the forum, and few from outside the clan forum ventured in. (for more than 3 seconds) I could easily see the forum being removed, as that would be the easiest solution. A lot of bridges have been burnt, so I don't know who's still willing to try and cross the river.

If it does happen, (clans coming back) it will take a lot of work. Just a couple snags could mean it's wasted effort too, so, if Sal's wants the clans back, some serious effort will have to be made. Frankly, I don't think it will happen, but I've been proven wrong before. They did finally consider sectional moderation after I left.

Edit - One other alternative is to leave it alone, in which case smaller clans and less experienced clans could have a forum of their own. I don't know how useful that would be, but it would be a bit more in line with the rest of Sal's in terms of moderation needs, since there would not be tons of fighting going on.

Only way for them to get the clan community back would be to get someone who actually has connections with the clans and wants this community to succeed to be on the staff. At the moment, no Sals staff can be bothered to even sit in a clans IRC channel, let alone talk with the actual clanners and see how the community works.

Untill they're willing to reach out to the clan community, they wont return.

as long as there are clans in rs i cant see why there is a problem. I mean since you guys have all left, it simply makes space for other clans to post here instead, there is always other clans waiting around the corner

I think as Bolty said we,d need our slates wiped clean and the mods would have to leave us the hell alone
EDIT: When i say leave us the hell alone i dont mean it that harshly

We need a mod to be the black-sheep sit in an IRC and learn for a few weeks. Afterwards im sure they would loosen up on the warns a little and maybe people would slowly return to these forums.

Slates clean, yes. Left alone, no.

I mean, if the Sals Admins were to have one clanner just be a liason/interpreter if you will to show them how everything works, that one active non-biased person could moderate the community, (with administration's blessing) which might be incentive for some more people to be well enough in line to moderate... It requires involvement of all parties in many ways. I just don't see that happening. It would require concessions and commitments from both sides that, at this point, are probably too large to be feasable. (spelling?)

I would suspect this will be a forum that few (RSC) clans use actively, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the whole forum.

Hard to say. It could die altogether but I believe it will probably hang around and be a format for smaller clans which isn't altogether a bad thing. As far as clean slates, those that left did so on their terms so I don't see why Sal's would need to make any reparations.

If that's your attitude, well, you do have that now with SalsCD forum.

Why? Or actually, why them and not all the others around the forum (see Beeboy, Drokarus, Bluefire, etcetera)?

As we have said ad nauseam, me, un0, Yuan, among others, did try to do that - Yuan is an actual clanner himself. Did the situation change at all? It did not.

Actually I,ve been suspended and warned numerous times on the new forums. I really don,t mind how the mods act towards myself because i know that all but maybe 2 of my warns were well deserved and the other 2 are understandable though purhaps a little harsh.
However i know that other people have been warned for silly things and misunderstandings (though i dont believe the problem was really as bad as some people made it out to be). Also when i said Leave us the hell alone that was a bit misunderstood. What i meant by that was for the Moderating staff to not try to do rambo-random interventions and sudden crackdowns from out of nowhere without some level of moderation no Online based community can thrive but some predictability and stability with the moderation would be appreciated



Because as far as we know (feel free to shoot my statement down if im wrong) these people didnt have warns that contributed to there banning for things such as commenting on others peoples lists and posting Gratz 3x. Many of the players on this forum that have been banned or have 4+ warn levels are the members of this community who have been well-liked and if not bettered the community. They didnt make a negative impact and were in many cases some of the better more mature posters. This isnt the case with every banned member but certainly some deserve another chance.




I Corrected your grammatical error you may praise my existance in a manner of your choice

I,ve only ever seen Yuan in an IRC and Yuan is a special case just because hes Yuan and has some Yuanality to him

From what i can tell so far the only person whos really been successful is yourself and if you had continued as you were im sure the community would be doing atleast a little better then it is atm but that would be unreasonable and unfair to other sections if we were to have you moderate this forum on your own for such a long time (and obviously very stressful)

Was there ever a fight? I can't seem to recall any time we've ever "fought" and tried to cater to you beyond agreeing with reasonable requests, petitions and suggestions. You work on the assumption you, as a community, were wanted.


Indeed. This is a suggestion recurring quite a few times and for each time it's been debated against, it has slowly lost its support within the Mod Team because of the devoid lack of improvement in this area despite of effort. The only reason it's fairly ignored now is the lack of activity and thus infractions, so it's basically just being ignored due to it causing no harm.
Improved activity would force a change in one way or another and it's hard to tell what that would be either way.



Actually, it was considered when you were active as well but the same problem existed. An excessive shortage of acceptable candidates to even properly discuss which the Staff would be willing to put faith in. Hell, I'd dare say there were more candidates back in those days.



Well, first of all, we have no official channel related to the forum so we're not required to. Secondly, what does that have anything to do with it? You want a direct conversation? Fine, PM me. Want to flame me? Apply for a Darwin award because you will be burned.

IRC is nothing but a fleeting multi-way chatroom, and no amount of Mods can ever cater a far greater host of people complaining, debating, whining, giving suggestions and just talking. If you really want to talk about something, Forum PMs exist. It's slower, but it's at least more reliable and more efficient then 20 ignorant community members complaining about the same thing, then being upset when 1 person alone can't answer 20 people at once.



You have a new forum for that now, where you can be left alone and complain. You got what you wanted, I'm happy for you. Enjoy your stay where your wishes can come through.

(Yes, I really mean that. I'm glad you guys can settle down somewhere where your needs are seen to properly and, thankfully, you let your abusive and rule-violating behaviour be there too.)



Think I know just enough about RuneScape clanning and PvP communities in general after all these years, as do a few others. Heck, Dani and yours truly wrote down quite some extensive lectures scattered in a lot of various threads in the Mod Board, just to educate people and give pointers to behaviours and such.
Theoretical knowledge only get you so far, and in this case, I deem IRC to be theoretical too since it's far too fluctuating and extensive, giving ample room for an accurate interpretation of intention and mood. A forum post is shorter, more static and harder to assess. If you want to assess forum situations, you need to gain experience by forum moderating.

Not to mention a lot of us tried hard back in the days for a long period of time to actually reach out to this community. It didn't help, you kept pushing us away because you still wasn't willing to see it from our side and in the end, we all gave up.



True, but finding someone as far from being biased as it come while at the same having respect in the community is rather rare, if not nearly non-existant.
You were one, though sadly, none really fit into your shoes after your departure.


I can understand that in one way, but I call it utter nonesense in another way.

Sudden crackdowns? I can recall when the Staff wasn't in this section beyond handling reports in private, not notifying the public, and then the warned forum members would still openly cry of abuse when it was resorted silently without the community noticing, but then being made aware of it. Just because the moderating became more noticeable from time to time doesn't mean it wasn't there in the first place. The only thing it really did was to give you a visible target for your frustration, as Finisterra became for instance.

I mean, for crying out loud, you cry for more moderators for 3 years straight and when a new guy is appointed and want to come here to try help out, you all leap at him and go hostile. Sure, everyone make mistakes. Especially during the first month of moderating, I might add, but how bloody hard would it be for some of you guys to make a thread called "Dear Finisterra", then be straight with him (or any other 'newbie' trying the same), explaining a few things and basically offering to teach him how the community works if you in return tone down your hostility?

You're not required to be nice to him, but we're not required to be nice to you when we issue visible attempts at severe moderating. Hell, what do you guys even think the Strike System is? I'll tell you what, it's a tool made by Dani and myself so a select group of interested mods could moderate this section with no external help, cracking down harshly on the sheer amount of infractions of that time.

My only regret is that we all got worn down by the neverending flow. The system works, it's just no one else to run it properly anymore. (By this I mean sitting in the CE&D section during weekends in war prime-time, reloading topics and focus moderating it all which we used to do.)



That's because in all honesty, I'd rather commit mass genocide then willingly step into a IRC-channel led by this community as it has acted up until now. The sheer level of IRC harrassment I've had from this community in multiple chatrooms, heck even my own clan's chatroom or forums, is enough to keep me away for good, even if you all turned saintly and nice.

I only meant in terms of starting over with the clan section. Other situations have other stories I am not familiar with. And, as you make your opinion clear, I would say that is exactly what I would expect. I can not see the staff giving clean slates, so everything beyond that in terms of a mutual progression is irrelevant.




My responses in red.




Anyway, I think we can all agree Sal's won't ever be what it once was, which in all honesty is probably better for the forum as a whole.

Lets all have a rave...

lol no offence to you guys, but your acting soooooooooo single mindedly here, and im speaking from a totally neutral opinion here. Even from an ex sals clan member...

It isn't as if you guys are the ONLY clans in RS and that Sals actually needs you specifically and hence your moving off to SalsCD to prove some sort of point. RS and even Sals is bigger and better than that. They dont specifically need you or any specific clan for that matter. Yet you guys seem to think that, im not sure why.

So there's a little blip in this forums activity? Doesn't matter every clan/forum has that no matter who/what they are. Im sure there are plenty of clans around the corner who wouldn't mind becoming a "Sals Clan" just so they get thier name out a bit more. At the end of the day your departures (and potential loss of recruits) is another clans gain. They will simply post here more and get thier name out there more.

If anything Sals were doing YOU guys a favor by opening this forum to you all, they didn't have to. At the end of the day it's their forum and so there rules, there really should be no reason why you should complain. Heck yes even i have a warn, but i can complain i did deserve it. It's not as if the mods here are like the power abusing nazi's over at rune hq, they are at least ten times worse!

You ask for mods, but your mods are ALWAYS going to be totally biased (no offence Reflections, i remeber you being one of the better ones tbh, but still). Anyone else you either dont give a chance or flame/moan at until you do get banned. Seriously some of the flame topics i see at times and i actually thing the mods are <too> leanient if anything! Some people should really grow up and act their age and this whole thing would'nt have happened in the first place.

Seriously mods have a tough enough job as it is, ask any leader of any clan. It's not easy making the right decisions especially if you know you have several clan ready to pretty much lynch you if you dont agree with them.



Patience is a virtue my son, over the last couple of years (during and after we were a sals clan) i've always made an effort to pop by here and the sheer number of clans that have come and gone is quite incredible. Im pretty sure that can happen again, why can't it? You've just got to wait and let it happen naturally.



Agreed, if anything this gives the forum a chance to reinvent itself, last couple of years all it has been is warring clans posting and flaming any other topic. Why not make it into more of a community type forum instead of just constant wars? I know for a fact that my clan would be fairly interested in that. I doesn't always have to be wars, but when there has been a topic where someone has done this, he just gets flamed.

Honestly you guys leaving might actually do some good to this forum, give other smaller and lesser know clans a look in.

I may be ranting a bit here, but it's only because it's like 5am =/

~Viz

lol why do you guys bother? Just enjoy Salscd. we have everything we've ever wanted, and no its not doing whatever we want yuan, its having a community led by people with common interests.

Just don't have the forum fail, I'd hate to see you all back... and unhappy about having lost your haven, naturally.

As sarcastic as I am to all of this, I really do mean that. I think that you did a good job leaving, it probably saved the section so we wouldn't have to deal with it in a drastic way, one way or the other. By removing all the petty infractions, the whining and sheer abuse of the rules elsewhere, you at least left what remained to people wanting to eventually forge a community anew, just so they can't be tainted by the narrowmindedness that used to inhabit this section.

It's hardly the first time this has happened anyway so forgive me if I'm not worried at all.

I don't think its even worth trying. We have a bigger and better clan section than ever before at SalsCD, as well as a few off topic forums if you're bored. I'm quite content there, but thank you for my short ride here Sals.

Not rave fans? How about moshing?

This forum wont be active again as Salscd is great and pretty much flame free. When there's an issue a mod takes care of it in a matter of minutes, not days. And being clanners they understand all the situations and deal with them accordingly, not just delete the post and then ban the poster(s).

Exodus is always down for a good rave.

I agree with everything you said, other than the bit I highlighted, which I just wanted to make a point or two for you.

I never flamed, to my knowledge, which is why I got the amount of respect I did. I tried to respect all opinions and views on topics in order to have all parties content. The only reason I asked about sectional modding to begin with was so that I (or anyone else capable) could have steered the clan community away from the flaming. I didn't want more mods/less modding in the sense that most of Sal's did. To be honest, I think the mods did a pretty good job, considering what they had to work with, and gave the community more than enough chances to change things. Yes, people needed to grow up, but rivalry is part of why some people clan. An active moderation presence is a very good way to keep things under control. There were options, but meh.

i cant see any highlight there mate, but i get which bit your reffering to. I know you for one who didnt flame at all, but i think you got less heat as it were with the more recent mods, this is probably because you were in one of the sals clan.

I remember most of bsk ( i was warlord at the time) not liking you, as our members felt as if you were totally baised against us in the sals tourney agains FT, but that is all in the past now. I think i still have proof that they cheated that war somewhere. Now im not having a dig here to you personally, because i was one who DID respect you. You did do one hell of a job with Sals considering the circumstances. But my point was that any type of mod from one of these clans is ALWAYS going to show some biasedness here. If anything you either have a sals mod or a mod who is NOT a member of a sals clan.

~Viz

Humans are all biased its one of our basic survival instincts that we need.
We as a species are designed and programmed to benefit ourselves one way we do this is by protecting and improving the quality of life for those closer to us in the hopes that they will do the same. People make quick first impressions of people that can never be reversed these impressions can be made by something as stupid as how well your name flows together theres nothing we can do about it except pick the person who acts upon there biased thoughts least. (I.e Bolty ) Therefore being a member of a Sals clan doesnt really make a difference.
Also i dont think bolty was respected because he never flamed. Ive never flamed anyone on these forums either but i have no more respect then those e-thugs and an0y1ng l33t sp34k0rz. Bolty is respected because he was one of the few people who acted maturely and bettered the community with almost every post he made and has also set a trend where the average maturity in posts seems to have increased. (Wait why am i posting this again? O.o

EDIT: Ohaider im not in a sals clan and ive never flamed anyone can i please have Sectional mod

well obviously there will ALWAYS be a slight biasedness, but surely even more so if the mod is in one of the sals clan...hence biased to his clan and allies ect...

That's why you pick more then one mod from different clans... so they can moderate each other as well.

It's kind of like the new car smell or the nice shiny clear coat finish on a new car. I have watched the new forum closely to see what it would become. The core is definitely beginning to show now.





Sure it's natural for one to feel fondly towards those you know and are friendly with and maybe feel a little angst for those you have had unhappy dealings with in the past but in no means does that mean that a person who is a clanner themselves could
not separate their emotions from their duty as a moderator. The only advantage to having a "free agent" so to speak is to remove perception of bias.

We had a fight to begin with? All I remember is Blade V1per got banned, he cried and made another "sal's"CD out of spite(correct me if i'm wrong). Personaly, I like the loosness of the other CD, but all they do over there is kiss Blade's booty. I like this forum better in ways, but the other runs better and I can see this forum falling.

Orgy? anyone? no?

gg Lolly you got the banhammer



False!

1. Blade was working on the forums for SalsCD before he was banned.
2. Blade is the subject of most of the E-bullying.
3. Blade is a nubbincakes ABDOOL FOR SALSCD KING!
4. These forums wont fail its just going to have a new group of members.

My intention if I was a sectional mod was not to be in a clan, so that I could quell complaints for favoritism.

As for you Viz, the highlighted bit should have been in the quote in my post of you, but meh. As long as you understand what I was talking about. And I know BsK felt like they got a very bad draw, and then got snubbed afterwards, but there is only so much I could have done, and a random tournament will always have a few higher rank capable clans being underanked in a one loss elimination format. (The silver lining was that it would motivate underranked clans to war more, which didn't happen. )

Anyway, it's water under the bridge, and Lol @ Lol as u die

i dont think it was really the draw that annoyed us, more the fact that FT cheated so much, yet when we posted about it in a fair and respective manner. It was dismissed and we were treated like outsiders as such. But like you say it was a VERY long time ago and doesnt really matter now. If anything it helped us realise that we shouldnt bother being a warring clan, so we've probably become stronger from it over time.

Similar happened to LoP when we first came to Sals. A flame thread started immediately, but unfortunately, FT was always very good at looking innocent even when not.

I don't think your being sarcastic at all. That's pretty much how I think all Sals Mods feel about the Clan Discussion area. You have never cared about this section, and you will never care about this section.

I agree, you should remove this section. The Mods here have no desire to see this section reach it's full potential. You would much rather see your goals and achievement section succeed. No, I'm not being sarcastic. All this could have been avoided had you done the some simple things.

- Give moderation powers to a few select people. You can give power to people and they can only use it in this forum. Rather than even try, you do nothing.

- Showed even the slightest hint that you cared about this section. Several Mods flat out said this section would be better off being removed.

- Have people in charge that know how people in clans function. Several warns and bans of people could have been avoided had this occurred.

I always enjoyed posting on this site. Ive never received a warn. The lack of effort and care however by the moderation team on this site astonishes me. You did this to yourself. Even if the other forums fail which is completly possible, this clan discussion will never receive the traffic it once did. This section is now dead.

Just wondering, where are those people?

It was ages ago, so most are gone now, some are RSC i think.

New sals is bad. Sals just before we left was bad. Unmoderated Sals was legendry.

When they suddenly started to try and moderate this section again flaming just got worse. They should have seen how everyone acted and based their rules around the people not the other way around. Who were they to force their views and opinions on us after at least a year of leaving us alone.

On the opposite view, who are you to question their judgement? They probably decided that it was time that some proper moderation was needed for this section, and although this may be unpopular you should try and respect their decisions. They didn't ask anything outrageous of you, just to follow the rules.

My nick is a perfect example of this.




Another one bites the dust.

What I fail to understand is you guys say your an independant forum yet you still managed to get reported. Now surely thats your problem, forgive me I'm drawing comparisons to the fakes forum like I did last time, but we are very self led, reports aren't useually needed as everyone is friendly, so surely the problem is you lot jsut aren't respecting each other? You are obviously are reporting each other as mods and admins don't usually come in

Most of the reports were people flame baiting, or reporting things that might have slid on another clan forum. Many times it was done by people who had grudges against another person. In general, there is a level of respect, but the warns/reports were more the result of vindictiveness. (I'm not saying rules weren't broken. I only mean attention was drawn to it in this manner.)

In Sal's CD, I am sure some people are still getting warned, but much less frequently, as clanners understand all the quirks of their own community. For better or for worse, that's not for me to decide though.

Well warns in theory should only be given out when a report is sent out, showing that someoen finds the post annoying/offensive/spammy. I can't see people coming here unless they wish to be involved in clanning (unlike fakes ) so its a solution you can sort out together, maybe go for an unelected leaders(s)

Edit:
[quote]
EDIT: Ohaider im not in a sals clan and ive never flamed anyone can i please have Sectional mod ohmy.gif



Edit tool!

Should and reality are two different things. People reported more for vindictiveness than offense, since most people in the clan world aren't actually offended by much of anything. (Most people who clan have very thick skins.) So, if anyone ever had a grudge against someone, they would report that person each time they could. Since most clanners have thicker skins, and are more close to the edge, the things said would seem worthy of warns to people not familiar with the section. That's just how I saw it at least.

If anyone should be a sectional mod.... *Insert powerhungry evil empire takeover planning for ClanWorld domination here*

But in all seriousness, it's all moot now.

So far because of this split the clan world has really slowed down in my eyes.

It's sped up and intensified for the rest of the Sals Clans. RSC is still going strong too... So is Tip.It... It's just this forum is dead now.

for the moment at least, but nothing ever sticks. Sals forum is bigger than a few clans, i dont understand why you guys are so single minded about this.

Ask them for their traffic log. I'm not 100% sure, but Clan Discussion made up a decent chunk of their forum activity.

The point is that you can't expect a forum to cater to your own needs. There was a time when Yuan, yours truly, Un0 and others took it upon themselves to get involved and moderate this section, if not well, at least decently. After a while, though, we realised one thing: without cooperation from the users, no amount of moderation or of care will ever make up for anything. You make it look as if it was somebody else's fault - look into your own field too, and tell me that everyone's spotless. No one is.

Moreover, several mods may have expressed their personal opinions, and those several mods who did express them did never take any moderating action here, so I don't see what weight do their words hold..if any.

Give moderation powers to a few select people? The problem is, who? The nominations were a put-friends-forward-fest apart from a few decent/good names that were, though, sporadic in the nominations. But now, what you asked for has become reality: not on here, though. It's hard to obtain something as a forum when for the entire existence of this board you behaved as if this was a forum by itself. This forum is a part of Sal's, and thus it has to be treated the same as the rest of the boards here. What would warrant you a special treatment above the rest of the forum?

Not a lot, in all honesty.

I dont think sals needs select moderation in the Clan discussion the only reason, that the clan discussion area went into a decline because some people obviously wanted power.

Mods really didn't ban / warn people unfairly and that excuse to depart to www.salscd.com is a joke.

Its a shame to see this part of the site turn into such a wasteland =/

I am disappointed to see the attitude taken by Mods here towards the clans in general. The attitudes range from apathy to disgust and missing is any genuine interest towards clans.

Is there anything wrong with such attitudes? Absolutely not. I have always believed that clans are not for everyone and that you do not have to be in a clan to enjoy playing the game. But I have also always believed that the purpose of a fansite is to assist the players by providing them with various services; that, their mission statement should be to cater for the needs of the fans and not the other way around, as it seems to be the case here.

For sure, Mods play an integral role in the running of a fansite. You can’t have one without them. But Mods are not the customers of this enterprise. They are the staff. They are here to support not to be a weight. Their role is supposed to be subordinate to that of the fans, whether those fans are clanners or not. And any fansite that doesn’t see this is doomed to closure.

im not sure what you can do.

Actually, without the moderators directly answering in this thread, this place would have been dead in 2006/2007. I know a few moderators went quite some long, straining rounds to keep this place alive. This place have been subject to a re-organization and closure enough as it is, yet it's always had enough support because we (read: those few moderators that cared) felt you guys had a right to have a chance.

However, I must say, when you say we miss a genuine interest towards clans, I'm not really sure where you're coming at. A lot of people in the Staff have been in clans, either skilling or warring, to have had an interest. Personally I've been following the PvP (warring) clan community back since my first contact with Mystic Knights back in 2005, so yeah... 4 years of interest, involvement and enjoyment ain't enough?

Yes, we have a responsibility as Staff to make sure the fansite is being run properly and to ease the community experience to enough forum members as possible in most aspects of the forum, in perfect harmony with our forum rules.
However, the integral mistake most of the clan community have made regarding this is that you think that this exodus to another forum is a blow to the fansite itself, and I'm not really sure where that thinking is coming from. This hasn't even been disccussed in the Mod board. Infact, the last thread regarding the Clan Section was the discussion we had about the section back in March, so it's not like we're worried about the future of our forum or you leaving. In fact, it seems those actually interested about the exodus were rather happy about it.

We gave you enough chances, we tried to make you understand that you were a part of the forum and not the forum being a part of the clan section, but you wouldn't listen. We tried mass-moderating it heavily to no avail at some points, we tried to restrain you from making infractions and what not, but nothing worked and in the end, we just gave up since the section itself was beyond help. The community here just couldn't be pleased, simply because the forum wouldn't change itself to cater to your needs while you refused to at least acknowledge our rules.

In essence, any action taken by the staff ended up being futile since the community refused to meet us on the half way, and yes, we really tried.

Sure, we might lose a lot of people coming to this forum by not wanting you back, so what? We got enough traffic elsewhere, it's not like the forum itself is dying. RuneScape itself is diversive enough by far to ensure that this site won't suffer in terms of traffic. You expect us to grovel and beg for a group of people that did nothing but ignore our simple rules and guidelines, that refused to even listen slightly to the smallest requests? Oh please, have your external forum, we're glad you enjoy yourselves, have fun, stay there. Harsh words maybe, but if you wanted less moderation, enjoy your offsite forum in peace and privacy, but you're not getting your sectional moderators, lack of supervision or what not here, not without very good, rational and constructive reasons.

Try to "blackmail" us all you want, the fact is, we really don't need you back. We're not barring you from coming back, but if you expect us to ask you to come back because we want/need you back.. well, you're wrong.

Oh, here's the last 3 posts in the Mod board about the clan section:







Point taken?