I was recently reading the book The Case For Faith by Lee Strobel and on chapter 6 (I believe it was) Strobel delves into the topic of hell. He interviews J. P. Moreland who explores the topic for some time where he tries to answer some objections that people have raised about the topic of hell including the nature of hell. Do you believe that hell is figurative or literal?


So, I am just interested in peoples' opinions on this subject. I'm trying to have fun with this topic, so don't go overboard everybody. I will try to keep up with topic even though I have been pretty busy lately. What do you think?

I don't want to really get involved in this debate cause I suck so bad at them, but i just wanna say a couple things real fast. First of all Lee Strobels books are great, he's a very good writer... well about theological stuff.
Personally I'm not entirely sure about what exactly hell will be, if it'll be all Fiery With Wailing and Nashing of Teeth and what not. Personally i believe that hell will probably just be nothingness, you alone with you're thoughts, and according to scripture just the fact that you are separated from God for eternity, knowing he exists and knowing you missed you're chance will be hell enough, the fire won't be needed. Thats just my opinion though, i know that some Christians would rip into that and call me a heretic

This.

I think it will be literal, and that there will also be varying degrees for those not chosen. Those who never heard will get it easier.

Seeing as I AM athiest, I believe that Hell is figurative and does NOT exist.

I'm an agnostic from a catholic/jewish background. I lean towards atheism but I can see the possibility of God existing. Under the possibility of God existing, I don't believe in the concept of burning in Hell forever. I perceive God as mostly benevolent and all I can imagine Hell as is a purgatory.

You do realize that this is a debate.

I believe that hell is a literal place of eternal separation from God. I don't know what it looks like, feels like, etc., all I know is that God isn't present there, thus making it hell.

If it did exist (which I don't think it does), it wouldn't be the fiery dantesque place people seem to think it is.

You don't go to hell, instead you're reborn as a ladybug.

So would that be any different than my life (which is quite far from hellish) since I don't ever feel God's presence? Or would you simply say that I am feeling it and not recognizing it as for what it is?

I read Lee Strobel's, A Case for Christ a number of years ago, very interesting read.

Everything on Earth comes from God, so you are definitely feeling His presence, whether you're at an all-time-life-high or just plain depressed, in every thing you do.

Guess when I'm standing by a pile of manure, I'm also smelling His presence, am I not, since he made it?

Hell is a weapon of ressentiment. It is used as a metaphysical dagger for those who wish to punish others. It is a means of control for those with a narrow limited sense of morality. They lack the resolve to fight you in this life, they do not have the strength or courage to attack you outright. They comfort themselves with this idea of Hell, they can sleep soundly at night knowing all their enemies will know defeat and pain in the next life.
There are those who wish to imprison us, no matter where our Being resides.

I was gonna say something like this:



but in a lot less intelligent way.

I don't think anything in the bible is literal anyway.

Why does an "all-loving and forgiving god" need a "hell"?

Really -- am I the only person who sees the dichotomy of this?

Christians always say that God doesn't send people to hell, but Satan does. Yeah, crazy shizzle. God is omnipotent, he created everything on this world (so he also created Satan), but he can't stop people from going to hell. Or he doesn't want to. He's either not omnipotent or not omnibenelovent.

It doesn't matter anyway because when you're dead you're dead.

LOL - or simply "not existent" ...

.. and here is again, an interesting conundrum -- if "Satan" is responsible for sending people to hell, then does this god (all three of him) not then have control over everyone's soul?

Most curious.

Of course, if Satan therefore DOES have a certain domain over people's immortal souls, then does that qualify Satan as another "god", and simply add to the already growing polytheism that is Christianity?

Tis a puzzlement!






Unless you're "undead" -- which would SUCK!

I suppose...

I believe hell is figurative, but I also believe hell can be created from total imbalance in a place, but I don't know of that anywhere.

if you wanna know from a christian perspective... read the bible

like in Job when theres a rich man and a beggar named Lazaras, they both died and Lazaras went to heaven, because he believed in God, and the rich men went to hell. The rich man asked for a drop of water to cool his tounge.... which he couldnt have...

from a christian perspective, hell is literal. it is eternal separation from God and an eternity in the lake of fire.

(using scripture)

Ah, Job, one of the many parts of the Bible that shows how "kind" this God character really is. To those who are interested in a "fun" read of this story, I suggest The Brick Testament version.

But, back on topic, I personally don't believe in any afterlife. In other words, I don't see any reason to accept Heaven, Hell, the Fields of Aaru or Yalu, the Chinvat bridge, Elysium, Valhalla, Niflhe, Samsara or any other afterlife hypothesis. As Mark Twain put it, "The ten thousand years after my death will bother me no more than the ten thousand before my birth." In my opinion, once the brain ceases to function then you simply cease to exist. End of story. Game over.

You know, you could also look at the fact that humans brought it upon themselves, as the Bible says.

So I'm responsible for something I didn't do? I am going to burn in hell because of the decisions of two people?

No, because you sin, too. That story is symbolic, showing in part that humans aren't flawless beings.

Well anyway, Hell is just spending the rest of eternity in fudgeing Bruges.
That's from a movie. Loved it.

That was the angle that Moreland approached in defending hell. I don't necessarily agree with him. My main problem is that he seems to be basing all of his arguments apart from the bible. One thing that especially annoyed me was his response to the objection number five that Strobel raised: "Why doesn't God just snuff people out?" As Strobel points out, it seems really inhumane to let somebody suffer for an eternity with separation from God (earlier Moreland had stated that the flames were figurative). And Moreland gives a page and a half response, but I have to quote one thing I found ridiculous, "What hell does is recognize that people have intrinsic value." He then goes on to argue with annihilationists.

I'll admit that I'm biased because I personally believe that God will "snuff people out" who choose not to follow him.


I don't know that I agree with that. God may be near to us, but can we always feel his presence? I don't know that we can.


Personally, I've found that quite a few Christians have a problem with the concept of hell, which goes straight against the argument that you are making. Some people may use hell as a tool to frighten people, but the majority of people are not like that. If you would go and talk to sincere Christians, you might find that this is the case. I would not wish an eternity of pain or of being kept alive forever in a vegetable state upon anybody. Where does that leave your theory?


There are things in the bible that are collaborated in archeology and history. You really might want to re-consider that.


God is merciful and patient. As you can see, the world has gone on for thousands of year without God coming. God is giving the whole world plenty of time.


Where in Job are you getting that? I don't recall reading that in Job.

An extremely interesting bible verse is found in Revelation 19:14

Then death and Hades were thrown in the lake of Fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


Hades or hell is thrown into the lake of fire? What do you guys think that this means?

Actually, it's entirely Yahweh's fault. Seeing as he's meant to be omniscient, he created humans fully knowing what the outcome would be. He knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and he knew that the standards he was setting up as "sin" were impossible to perfectly respect. Alongside the fact that he has a fetish for blood sacrifices, this just makes him seem like one creepy, sadistic fellow.

That's why I don't think God is a very good god

If u were a father, would u let ur son skateboard despite the high risk that he could seriously injure himself the first time? Would u not let ur daughter date despite the risks? Drive a car despite the risks? Fly a plane despite the risks? God is loving because he let's us choose our way and our path. He doesn't want mere machines who do his bidding but a loving family. If he wanted machines, we will be zombies without thought or soul.

Even if it means falling into the devil's clasps, he allows us to pick our path. Because like a loving father, he expects us to head his advice yet learn from our mistakes on our own.

I am ready for my flaming now for my ignorant religious statement about God's Love. Bring it on Secular Stormtroopers!

I think Pheonix Rider summed this up pretty well: God loves us so much that, knowing what the outcome would be, He still gave us a choice whether to do his will or not.

C.S Lewis stated pretty well that...

hell is one of the reasons a few years ago I revoked Christianity, because if there is such an all loving god like christians say he has than he wouldnt make people suffer in eternity just because they didnt believe in him.

The analogies often made concerning your god tend to fail seeing as he is meant to have the attribute of omniscience - knowledge of all things past, present and future. I can elaborate on your analogy as if I possessed the same characteristics as your god.

If I were a father and I knew my son would injure himself at a precise moment, I'd warn him about it beforehand. If I were a father and I knew my daughter would end up dating a complete prick, I might feel obligated to discuss the situation with her. If I were a person who knew he'd get into a car/plane accident that day, I'd do everything to avoid it.



You must take into consideration he apparently knows exactly what our decisions will be. Everything is already set in stone seeing as he already knows what's going to happen. At least, that's what would be required if he really was omniscient. Therefore, we are mere "machines" that do his bidding - he created the world in a way that he decided the outcomes that were bound to occur. Nevertheless, he still demands to be worshiped and punishes you for your sins.



I have arrived!

Why should I wonder about the afterlife when I something better right here? Why would I worship something? I'm not going to believe in a someone who is SO power that he isn't here. That's like saying if I jump of a bridge I'm going to appear in "heaven". Bull crap. Their are MANY different religions. It's what keeps people in place.

And if you are sure their is a god; why do people surfer for no reason? Why do people die everyday?

What is God's fault? Also, I would like to point out that it is not impossible to quit sinning. Jesus demonstrated that with his life on earth. Anyway, on the one hand, you are blaming God for making these rules that are "impossible" to follow and on the other you are mocking his "fetish for blood sacrifices". The sacrificial system was God's way of allowing sinful humans to be covered under his law despite their shortcomings. It is ultimately a plan that involves the redemption and saving of the humans that God created. I don't see anything creepy about that.

Anyway, you are completely jumping the boat on keeping on topic for this debate.



I don't believe that he does.



That doesn't really make sense to me. Lets assume for a second that I can predict that you will be killed by an 1337 assassin if you keep on walking down that road. I warn you not to go down that road, yet you still go. Did you have a choice or no?

God does give us multiple warnings throughout our lifetimes.

It all comes down to if you believe there is a higher being who has their own set of morals that they want us to live by. I personally find that to be rather silly. If there is a higher being, a God, I don't believe ie wouldn't institute a moral code.

Does God want humans/animals to suffer for the sins of other people? Does he have some sadistic murderous obsession or something?


God created everything in this world.

God created hell. He wants people to suffer, that's all I can conclude.

The consequences of sin is death so the system was put into place so that traditionally the blood of a lamb would act as a substitute for the sins of the person. Where are you getting the idea that God wants humans to be sacrificed for other peoples' sins? There have been certain pagan religions that have practiced human sacrifice. Jesus did serve as the lamb of God by sacrificing himself that other people may live of his own free will. I fail to see how that is sadistic.


However, that is neither here nor there. As you might recall, this is a discussion on hell.



Hell is the destruction at the end of time.

I believe so because God created the entire world, and with it everything we know and hold dear. Therefore, we feel God's presence constantly. However, the vast majority of the time we blotch it out and/or ignore it, whether intentionally or not.

I think Hell is just something people use to keep other people in line. Threat of eternal punishment and torture is pretty effective. But whether it actually exists is anyone's guess.

Well, I don't want to run the risk of ending up there.

All i have to say is I'll see when i die.

Indeed, it isn't possible to quit sinning. Who created the humans in this way and what standards were subsequently put up?



Which is pretty much circular logic. Blood sacrifices redeem sin because blood sacrifices are the way to redeem sin because blood sacrifices redeem sin because... Why would blood sacrifices magically allow "sinful humans to be covered under his law"? Who put up these standards? He did. That's why I'm saying it's ultimately creepy.



Not at all, this is in relation to the judgment that would send you to either Hell or Heaven. I'm saying the god of the Bible is a mess when it comes to this.



Except you left out another significant characteristic: omnipotence. Your god is meant to be all-powerful, therefore he can prevent anything. Everything is in his control.

Also, your analogy doesn't work because you're simply "predicting" that I will be killed, your god is meant to know precisely what's going to occur without the slightest margin of error.



Warnings of what?



Where? The Christian concept of punishment in the afterlife, the ancient Egyptian concept of punishment in the afterlife, the Norse concept of punishment in the afterlife, the Buddhist/Hindu/Sikh concept of punishment in your future life, the Platonian concept of punishment in the afterlife, the ancient Greek/Roman concept of punishment in the afterlife, the Jewish concept of judgment in the afterlife (which is actually different from the Christian concept), the Islamic concept of punishment in the afterlife (again, different from Christianity)... ?

So you wanna make your life a hell by living in constant fear and insecurity?

That's what I call hell.

We read in Job that the sons of God came together. That would lead us to believe that there are other planets that God has created as well. These are universal standards that God has created.




Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That is actually the answer, though. You might think that this is circular logic, but it also happens to be why the sacrificial system was put into place. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were essentially doomed to death. However, God in his mercy allowed a way for them to still be with him in Heaven at the end of time.


That does not mean that he should do everything that is in his power. He lets us make our own decisions in life. Stopping you would intrude on your free will.

Hypothetically speaking, I have the power to predict everything that will happen without the slightest margin of error. You are being too literal about an anology. Obviously, I don't have that ability. We are assuming that I do.



He gives us warnings of his coming.

Mormril, I've always been puzzled by this.
If God knows everything, he can know what we will do, how we will be, so he knows when, why and how we will behave, even if it's bad behavior. So, he creates us, and he would know who will go to hell, won't he? I've always been puzzled by that, and if he truly is all-knowing, he knows who's damned, and still creates these damnation-predestined fellas, which doesn't seem fair to me.

He created us because he loves us and wants us to love him, but at the same time he doesn't control us because he loves us so much. He gives us the choice to follow him or not to.

Yeah, pretty much what Finway said. I'll admit that it did seem unfair to me at one point. After all, God already knows whether or not we will accept him or not, so what's the point of even playing? However, I have thought about it since then and it doesn't really change anything from my point of view. I still have a choice.

Here's my opinion on that:

When (if, maybe) you choose to respond to this, you will say you made the choice to. But how do you know you made the choice? You can't go back and do it over again, how can your prove that you weren't pre-destined to make that post and say exactly what you did?