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Scrum
QUOTE
South African officials have stepped up their defence of Caster Semenya, warning of a "third world war" if the row over her sex stops her competing.
The 18-year-old 800m world champion has had medical tests following doubts about whether she is actually female.
South Africa's sports minister, the Reverend Makhenkesi Stofile, said: "Caster is a woman, she remains our heroine. We must protect her."
BBC Sport understands tests are likely to show Semenya has an intersex status.
That means that although she has been brought up as a girl and lives as a woman, she may prove to have both male and female sex characteristics.


South Africans give their views on the latest twist in Semenya's story

In pictures
Athletics world governing body the IAAF is still analysing the results of Semenya's tests and wants to discuss them with the athlete.
It has indicated that she is unlikely to be asked to return the gold medal she won in Berlin, but questions remain over her future in women's sport.
Asked what would happen if she was barred from competition, Stofile said: "I think it would be the third world war.
"We (would) go to the highest levels in contesting such a decision. I think it would be totally unfair and totally unjust.
"Neither Caster nor her family deserves this humiliation. None of them have done anything wrong. And we appeal that they be left alone.
"We have referred the matter to our lawyers to see how best her rights and interests can be protected."
Stofile was speaking after media reports in Australia claimed a source had revealed that Semenya's test results showed her to be a hermaphrodite - someone who has some or all of the primary sex characteristics of both men and women.

GORDON FARQUHAR'S BLOG
How and who should decide in these cases whether the person be considered a woman or a man?
But South Africa's athletics president Leonard Chuene told the Star newspaper: "The IAAF told us this week that the tests are inconclusive and they could not give us the results just yet.
"So I really do not know where the Australia media got this latest one from."
National Assembly's sports committee chairman Butana Komphela added: "Someone is guilty of leaking her confidential medical information to Australian newspapers."
However, IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said: "The statements should be treated with caution as they are not official statements by the IAAF.
"We have received the results from Germany, but they now need to be examined by a group of experts and we will not be in a position to speak to the athlete about them for at least a few weeks.

"After that, depending on the results, we will meet privately with the athlete to discuss further action."
The IAAF has confirmed it will not comment further on Semenya until after the IAAF council meeting in Monaco on 20-21 November.
BBC sports news correspondent Gordon Farquhar said: "It's likely that she has some hermaphroditic or intersex condition.
"We already know that she has testosterone levels that are three times higher than those normally expected in a female.
"It's a serious issue and the athlete has to be told the implications.
"There are three possible outcomes from the expert's discussions: that the condition does not give her a competitive advantage; the condition gives her a competitive advantage, which cannot be treated; or most likely, the condition can be treated in some way if she consents to it, and in time she can return to competition."
"The IAAF has to weigh the interest of the athlete, an apparently innocent victim in this, with its responsibility to ensure fair competition."
Semenya won the 800m title in Berlin in August in the fastest time of the year, one minute, 55.45 seconds, 2.5 seconds ahead of Kenya's 2007 champion Janeth Jepkosgei.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/8249948.stm

Let's debate something a little different. I saw something in the paper saying she was a Hermaphrodite, and I saw this on BBC News so yeah. Let's debate!

Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?

EDIT: Yah and oya is it an overreaction?
Da Scotsman
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?


if by 'what is wrong about it anyway' you mean why is it a big thing if she was born a male or a hermaphrodite? This is because it results in different muscle growth and levels of hormones than in average females thus giving her an advantage when competing against them.

I feel they're doing the right thing be testing her but these inconclusive tests leave me what wondering what the true situation with her sexuality is... thus affecting my opinion... quite a tricky situation. But I do feel very sorry for her it she is a woman having to got through all this.
Scrum
QUOTE (Da Scotsman @ Sep 11 2009, 05:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?


if by 'what is wrong about it anyway' you mean why is it a big thing if she was born a male or a hermaphrodite? This is because it results in different muscle growth and levels of hormones than in average females thus giving her an advantage when competing against them.

I feel they're doing the right thing be testing her but these inconclusive tests leave me what wondering what the true situation with her sexuality is... thus affecting my opinion... quite a tricky situation. But I do feel very sorry for her it she is a woman having to got through all this.

Yeah but if women and men are equal it wouldn't matter.
Ruin
i saw a picture and all I can say is if that is considered a woman i would be worshipped as a female god in Africa.

joking aside everything from her facial structure to her build screams man and i would be very suprised if she was a women.
Blyaunte
QUOTE (ruin @ Sep 11 2009, 01:05 PM) *
i saw a picture and all I can say is if that is considered a woman i would be worshipped as a female god in Africa.

joking aside everything from her facial structure to her build screams man and i would be very suprised if she was a women.


... a very MANLY woman? laugh.gif

Physically, when looking at Caster Semenya, I cannot tell if I am looking at a man or a woman -- if I saw a picture of Caster Semenya without a caption identifying who it is, I'd say that it is a picture of a man.

Does this give Caster Semenya a disadvantage in sports? I dunno -- but if it does, then she should not be competing against other females using HGH because that'd be unfair ... unsure.gif
Da Scotsman
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:59 PM) *
QUOTE (Da Scotsman @ Sep 11 2009, 05:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?


if by 'what is wrong about it anyway' you mean why is it a big thing if she was born a male or a hermaphrodite? This is because it results in different muscle growth and levels of hormones than in average females thus giving her an advantage when competing against them.

I feel they're doing the right thing be testing her but these inconclusive tests leave me what wondering what the true situation with her sexuality is... thus affecting my opinion... quite a tricky situation. But I do feel very sorry for her it she is a woman having to got through all this.

Yeah but if women and men are equal it wouldn't matter.

But in sporting terms women and men can't be equal. I'm not being sexist as it's biological fact that due to certain factors male athletes are able to preform better and for longer in all sports I can think of.
Scrum
QUOTE (Da Scotsman @ Sep 11 2009, 05:19 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:59 PM) *
QUOTE (Da Scotsman @ Sep 11 2009, 05:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?


if by 'what is wrong about it anyway' you mean why is it a big thing if she was born a male or a hermaphrodite? This is because it results in different muscle growth and levels of hormones than in average females thus giving her an advantage when competing against them.

I feel they're doing the right thing be testing her but these inconclusive tests leave me what wondering what the true situation with her sexuality is... thus affecting my opinion... quite a tricky situation. But I do feel very sorry for her it she is a woman having to got through all this.

Yeah but if women and men are equal it wouldn't matter.

But in sporting terms women and men can't be equal. I'm not being sexist as it's biological fact that due to certain factors male athletes are able to preform better and for longer in all sports I can think of.

Yes, but why should this be out in the open, especcially as they wanted the gender tests right after the win. IF she'd lost noone would care tbh
iToast
QUOTE (Da Scotsman @ Sep 11 2009, 05:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Should this be happening, and what is wrong about it anyway?


if by 'what is wrong about it anyway' you mean why is it a big thing if she was born a male or a hermaphrodite? This is because it results in different muscle growth and levels of hormones than in average females thus giving her an advantage when competing against them.

Genetics can majorly influence one's fitness. Does this mean we should disallow people who have a genetic predisposition to greater physical fitness? Of course not. Equality on such a scale would be contrary to reason.
nakoma
She was raised a girl, has developed breasts and has a genital structure simmilar to a womans. Hermaphodite means she is of neither gender by biological standards. That being said If you would like to believe that this gives her an advantage then would she not be disadvantaged against men? And as someone else pointed out should we ban people who have better genetics from competion?


Theres not enough hermaphodite's to start a thrid gender catigory so I see no problem with grouping others into the catigory they match.

No one would complain if a male hermaphodite won in the mens league would they? or would they say well he is not technically a man so he is disqualified. As far as I see it To take away the medal would be discrimination.
Joe The Twin
It's a bloke
When I saw this last month I thought it was a bloke commenting on the story, then i realised it was "her" talking. "Her" voice also sounded like a blokes.

I laughed at the World War 3 bit
Scrum
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.

However I did agree with the rest of your post.
Cattius
I've seen some pictures of her and she looks like a woman to me, although I can understand why some people think she isn't. Her voice proves nothing IMO; many women sound like 'men' when they talk (i.e. their voices are deep), including myself. I naturally have quite a deep voice and it got deeper when I had a bad throat infection that damaged my voicebox.
Egghebrecht
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
No one would complain if a male hermaphodite won in the mens league would they? or would they say well he is not technically a man so he is disqualified. As far as I see it To take away the medal would be discrimination.


a male hermaphrodite...

right

and indeed no one would complain if a hermaphrodite won in the male competition because THE factor is having balls, (internal or not) which produce testosterone
if you have those you can't compete in the woman's league
period

it is the reason why the leagues are separated
testosterone

i don't care how she/he was raised
what matters is whether he/she produces MALE hormones on a male lvl

period

QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway
Scrum
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway

How so? I wouldn't have the male genitalia because I'd have swapped it for a vagina..
Egghebrecht
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 11:13 AM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway

How so? I wouldn't have the male genitalia because I'd have swapped it for a vagina..

depends on the lvl of the surgery
and you would still be male genetically
and would have had the positive aspect of having had a testosterone treatment for your whole life before
which is cheating
Scrum
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 11:50 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 11:13 AM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway

How so? I wouldn't have the male genitalia because I'd have swapped it for a vagina..

depends on the lvl of the surgery
and you would still be male genetically
and would have had the positive aspect of having had a testosterone treatment for your whole life before
which is cheating

My point was you couldn't compete with men or women then.
Arianna
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 01:21 PM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 11:50 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 11:13 AM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway

How so? I wouldn't have the male genitalia because I'd have swapped it for a vagina..

depends on the lvl of the surgery
and you would still be male genetically
and would have had the positive aspect of having had a testosterone treatment for your whole life before
which is cheating

My point was you couldn't compete with men or women then.

The point is that you'd swap to the other gender whereas she never changed anything by herself. ;P

Technically, the IAAF rules say that she should compete with females.
Razorlike
QUOTE (Arianna @ Sep 12 2009, 03:26 PM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 01:21 PM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 11:50 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 12 2009, 11:13 AM) *
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 12 2009, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Scrum @ Sep 11 2009, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM) *
She was raised a girl

I don't think that strictly matters. I can be raised a guy, but if I have a sex change I can't compete with men, for example.


actually you would need to compete as a man tongue.gif
since you'll have a male gene structure still (and testosterone lvls)
but due to the hormones you would have to take for the sex change you would be out for doping anyway

How so? I wouldn't have the male genitalia because I'd have swapped it for a vagina..

depends on the lvl of the surgery
and you would still be male genetically
and would have had the positive aspect of having had a testosterone treatment for your whole life before
which is cheating

My point was you couldn't compete with men or women then.

The point is that you'd swap to the other gender whereas she never changed anything by herself. ;P

Technically, the IAAF rules say that she should compete with females.

Could you give the exact rule please.

~Razorlike
Arianna
QUOTE
B. Current IAAF Policy
In 1992, the Medical Committee recommended and the Council adopted the
current policy on gender verification, which states:
1. The general “health check” is strongly recommended, but no longer
required.
2. Visual examination of the genitalia during the delivery of a urine
specimen in the women’s doping control station is a sufficient method
of determining whether the athlete is male or female. The risk of a male
being discovered during the doping control procedure is sufficient
deterrent to prevent males from attempting to compete as females.
3. The Medical Delegate at international competitions has the authority to
initiate additional examinations if there is a question or ambiguity
concerning an athlete’s gender.
There is currently concern among some athletes and officials that genitalia are
not being examined adequately in doping control stations, due to lack of training
of station personnel, and perhaps due to cultural constraints as well. Hence, further
clarification or changes may be forthcoming. (See also Appendix 13, Process for the
Management of Gender-Related Issues.)

C. Sex Reassignment—IOC Consensus Statement
The IAAF Medical /Anti-Doping Commission has adopted the IOC Medical
Commission’s statement on sports participation for athletes who have undergone sex
reassignment.
1. Before Puberty
“Individuals undergoing sex reassignment of male to female before puberty
should be regarded as girls and women.” Similarly, this also applies to female to
male reassignment, and they should be regarded as boys or men.
2. After Puberty
Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female, or the reverse,
after puberty are eligible to participate in their reassigned gender under the following
conditions:
a. Surgical anatomic changes have been completed, including external
genitalia changes and gonadectomy.
b. Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the
appropriate official authorities.
c. Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered
in a verifiable manner and for sufficient length of time to minimise
gender-related advantages in sport competitions.
Further guidelines:
a. Eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.
b. A confidential case-by-case evaluation will occur.
c. In the event that the gender of a competing athlete is questioned, the
medical delegate (or equivalent) of the relevant sporting body shall
have the authority to take all appropriate measures for the determination
of the gender of a competitor.


http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/imported/42028.pdf

Pages 8 to 10.
As
I believe she should keep her medal but unfortunately not be allowed to compete anymore unless there is some kind of league like that. I think she should keep the gold because she didn't know of her condition (?) then.

As
Arianna
QUOTE
not be allowed to compete anymore unless there is some kind of league like that
How about abiding by the IAAF already-existing rules? huh.gif
nakoma
QUOTE
(nakoma @ Sep 11 2009, 10:04 PM)
No one would complain if a male hermaphodite won in the mens league would they? or would they say well he is not technically a man so he is disqualified. As far as I see it To take away the medal would be discrimination.


QUOTE
a male hermaphrodite...

right

and indeed no one would complain if a hermaphrodite won in the male competition because THE factor is having balls, (internal or not) which produce testosterone
if you have those you can't compete in the woman's league
period

it is the reason why the leagues are separated
testosterone

i don't care how she/he was raised
what matters is whether he/she produces MALE hormones on a male lvl

period


You totally misunderstood everything I said.

Ok looks like I have to simplify it for you.

A man with ovaries instead of testicles. Competes in mens leauge. Wins mens leauge.
Gets drug test. Comes back that he is not a man.


Get it?

The girl who won the gold is a woman with testicles where her ovaries should be she got tested for drugs came out that she is not fully female.
Egghebrecht
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 14 2009, 09:19 PM) *
"a male hermaphrodite...right and indeed no one would complain if a hermaphrodite won in the male competition because THE factor is having balls, (internal or not) which produce testosterone
if you have those you can't compete in the woman's league
period
it is the reason why the leagues are separated
testosterone
i don't care how she/he was raised
what matters is whether he/she produces MALE hormones on a male lvl
period"


You totally misunderstood everything I said.

Ok looks like I have to simplify it for you.

A man with ovaries instead of testicles. Competes in mens leauge. Wins mens leauge.
Gets drug test. Comes back that he is not a man.


Get it?

The girl who won the gold is a woman with testicles where her ovaries should be she got tested for drugs came out that she is not fully female.

aside from your quotes mess up i don't understand your point
you give a reason
but not the point which you want to make

what should be done in this case?
you kinda forgot to answer that part which is what all this is about
nakoma
QUOTE (Egghebrecht @ Sep 14 2009, 02:23 PM) *
QUOTE (nakoma @ Sep 14 2009, 09:19 PM) *
"a male hermaphrodite...right and indeed no one would complain if a hermaphrodite won in the male competition because THE factor is having balls, (internal or not) which produce testosterone
if you have those you can't compete in the woman's league
period
it is the reason why the leagues are separated
testosterone
i don't care how she/he was raised
what matters is whether he/she produces MALE hormones on a male lvl
period"


You totally misunderstood everything I said.

Ok looks like I have to simplify it for you.

A man with ovaries instead of testicles. Competes in mens leauge. Wins mens leauge.
Gets drug test. Comes back that he is not a man.


Get it?

The girl who won the gold is a woman with testicles where her ovaries should be she got tested for drugs came out that she is not fully female.

aside from your quotes mess up i don't understand your point
you give a reason
but not the point which you want to make

what should be done in this case?
you kinda forgot to answer that part which is what all this is about


My point was to clarify what I was talking about in my first post in this thread. If you read that it makes sense.

The other point was to point out that because people think women are genetically built in a way that would give them a disadvantage against men that a HERMAPHODITE MALE would have a gentic DISADVATAGE in the MENS catigory. SO IF THEY WON would the judges say well he is not really a man so he can't win.
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