http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/15/obama-s...act-extensions/
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_...EMPLATE=DEFAULT
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/15...test=latestnews

I admit, I'm not avid reader of AntiWar.com articles, but I wanted to give everyone here several articles about this issue, and I stumbled across that site, so I wanted to cite the article.

Anyways, you all know that I, along with almost 50% of the nation at this point, disapprove of Obama's presidency. So do I have a bias, sure I do. Everyone does. But someone please tell me why when there is a Republican in office, the Democrats (including Obama) smash the Patriot Act and say its un-American, yet now that they have the White House along with both houses of congress, they are going to extend it (it was set to expire soon).

More flippy-floppy from Obama!

Discuss

~Sgt.Pepper

ps: I tried looking on Cnn.com, but they don't have an article on this, oddly enough

Yeah, Obama, all about civil rights.

"Will you unban marijuana"
"No, I'd rather make the ban more restrictive"
"Will you end the Patriot Act?"
"No, I'd like to extend it"

I don't think one can argue very well that banning marijuana violates the Constitution. That said, I am confused with Obama's stance on many things - he's more like Bush than I expected.

I'll wait for other posts to comment on the Patriot Act; I like to know both sides of a story before commenting on how fair it is. With what some sites like this have said about health care, I wouldn't be surprised if this was completely wrong. (Tbh I didn't even read the articles.)

Edit: Only 22 wiretaps per year? Sounds like there's been more propaganda going on around that than I thought.

All I've got to say is Obama's being truly disappointing with his internal politics and his external politics...

One could say it takes away personal freedom. Unlike murder, where the murderer is confined (stripped of their rights), a marijuana smoker harms no one except for themselves, and we allow people to drink many drinks, why should they not be allowed to use marijuana?

When Obama never said a single word on removeing the "Patriot Act" I guessed he would use it for his own ends. However, I never guessed he would try to extend it.

I was against the Patriot Act at the start, I am against it now.

~John

Benjamin Franklin:


Enough said.

Not to play down the actual debate, but this aggravated me a LOT. You don't disapprove of his presidency the way any rational person should. You put up that ridiculous signature the second Obama got elected. You never gave him a chance to get your disapproval. You may dislike him now but you didn't put any thought into it in the first place.

+1

I even went out and bought one of his books and read it. Hell's bells, I even agree with one of his decisions (that I know of...maybe there are more that I'm simply not aware of) I don't just randomly spew hate at the guy like you seem to do, Sgt. Pepper.


That's kind of a given...every politician disappoints these days.

I've always disliked that quote. Love of safety over liberty does not disqualify you from deserving liberty, much less safety. Even if it's just making a rhetorical statement, I disagree - there is nothing shameful in obeying the law when it doesn't give you freedom but doesn't harm others, either. People condemn "sheep," but the fact is that society needs obedient people who will follow the laws unless they become truly oppressive. If everyone was radical and challenged the government at every step, we would never get anywhere and the world would be full of even more conflict than it is at present. We need a balance of opinions and of levels of attachment to them to function well as a large community.

It is true that it is nobler to resist the loss liberty at the cost of temporary safety than otherwise, but those who do not do so don't forfeit anything from their choice, and shouldn't. Unless they directly or indirectly cause significant harm to others, in which case the situation is different. But I digress.

Oh yeah, and Congress has the power to regulate trade, so that gives it the power to outlaw marijuana, if I am correct. In any case, it is foolish to allow people to openly buy and sell anything besides weaponry at no penalty - if it's unconstitutional to ban marijuana, the same goes for every drug, and worse.

I really feel bad for Obama. He has to be having a very hard presidency, seeing as how he's got the conservatives beating down on his neck like a hawk, and the liberals treating him like some sort of black Jesus, and demanding him to solve all their problems.

As for this, I don't know much about it, but why are you (Pepper) bashing Obama for supporting it when you didn't bash Bush for it? You use that same kind of argument against Obama supporters, but you fail to see how easy it can be turned on you.

Oh, it's only worth noting at this point that Obama is not the problem (as with Bush, he wasn't the problem), it was the VP.

eeheeheeheebidenfail

But yeah. I think Biden may be behind this, but what do I know.

Umm, you're making the assumption that I didn't rationally reach an opinion before he was elected (no its not impossible) I understood the kind of man/president-to-be he was before he was elected, I listened to his point of view on the issues, etc., and believe(d) that he would not be a good president.



Awww, you don't like my signature? I find the satire to be quite humorous



The 2008 Presidential Campaign was, by all means and purposes, a job interview. That's where the candidates display who they are/what they will do and pit for the voter's approval or disapproval. That was his chance. Obama and McCain both gave the American public their credentials, where they see themselves in four years, etc. The American people are the employer (literally) and both candidates told us what they can do for the country. Being one part of the whole employer, I weighed what each candidate had to say in order to say which candidate I would rather. I'm not sure if you are familiar with economics/the real business world, but if you are an employer, you don't give a potential-employee the job and then make assumptions about them. You form your opinion about them (holy crap, an interview ), and then you let them know if they got the job or not.

Obama didn't buy me over, due to the numerous things I found wrong in his stance on the issues (thats when/if he actually had a stance). Unfortunately, enough of the American people fell for the bait (criticize me if you want for saying that, but go look at today's poll numbers buddy, Obama's approval ranking is tanking, and all of those "undecided" voters are probably not approving of him now), so we gave him the job.

And now that all of the things I (as well as many others) did not like about Obama and his policies have come into action (and as of now, they're sucking), and now that we are actually living the atrocity that many of us thought would happen (although by far I didn't think it would be as severe as it is now), other people are starting to realize it.

So actually, I've probably put more thought into than you have.



Yes, because I'm obviously a bubbling pool of hate and I'm spewing out my acid rain over Obama..


~Sgt.Pepper

Yes, yes you are. Every time you mention Obama, he's gone and done something wrong again. That's all it ever is from you.

Why is it every time a democrat changes their position it's that their flip floppy and everytime a Republican changes their position they reassessed their position? It's the same damn thing. And I am extremely displeased with Obama's performance as it is as well.

Oh wait, he did something right? I guess didn't get the memo.

Let me know when he does something right or when the economy stops tanking, because right now, I don't know about you, but the world I'm living in is an economic craphole at the moment, and the national debt is going out of control, yet people keep buying into the concept that Obama is going to fix the budget, when in reality the democrats have only balanced less than .01% of the budget thus far.

~Sgt.Pepper

Yep. He cut the hugely over budget, hugely anachronistic F-22 Raptor program, for the time being at least. Until the F-15SE is picked


The budget won't be balanced until the Fed is killed off. Nobody in the Big Two is going to do that, unless you wanted to count Ron Paul on a technicality. Also, this is not an economic craphole. Zimbabwe, or Indonesia, or Burkina Faso is an economic craphole. Don't be such an ignoramus.

The economy is getting better by the month (by and large, at least recently). My family has made nearly $100,000 off one single stock since last fall, and we're not exactly rich. You can't seriously tell me that it's worse than it was last autumn.

Whether Obama is partially responsible for that, and if so to what extent, I have no idea. The problem with Obama's policies is that nearly all of them have only long-term payoffs, so even if they do well he won't look good for quite some time. Perhaps it's wishful thinking that he'll be good for the country, but I'm hoping so - it's not as if I have any influence, and not having a particularly sophisticated grasp of international economics, I'm really not in a position to nitpick. Hope's better than none, right?

I still consider myself a Republican, but since I can't see any Republican legislation being put forward atm, besides bills to block Obama's stuff, I'll take what I can get.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Mirage:+Why+...,...-a019398217

That right there is an article explaining how neither side can balance the budget alone...

Now, with that out of the way, please explain to me how much of the budget Republicans have balanced without simply screwing the average american over... And I have to question why you're criticizing people who buy into Obama's budget fixing powers, when it is apparent you will only be impressed when the "economy stops tanking"; in other words, when Obama fixes the budget.

...

yea because if you were put in charge of fixing bush's massive failures the national debt and all of americas problems would be gone in a week right? Give the guy a break he has just about the worst job in the country.

Because Bush was the only bad President ever.

Did you go just as buck wild over Bush's 24% approval rating his last years as president? Or did you just get all orgasmic when Obama's numbers finally started coming down from his post-election high? (Psst...you got a little something on your chin.) And will you make a mention of them when they go back up? You strike me as one of those secessionist tea-bagger types too. Did you join the other 50k and march on D.C. last weekend?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fymdNxn82M
Your ilk is seriously disturbed. And even though they don't understand how hypocritical and absurd it is, Ayn Rand is their hero.

You don't make threads with the hopes of having a healthy debate, you make a thread with the hopes of ripping on Obama because you're just like the tea-baggers, you hate him. Oh, he's black too - I bet you hadn't noticed that yet.

Meh. I'm tempted to agree.

Well, at least he does consult Congress.

The irony is not lost on me. It is interesting, 123man, that you did not comment on Obama's choice to renew the patriot act.

Meh, I saw this coming before he was being worshiped around election time. One thing I dind't like was that people voted for him because he was black, not because of his policies, all I heard was empty rhetoric around the word "change" Seems like another Gordon Brown U-turn fan.

It'd be nice if he changed things really.



I lolled.

I'm gonna bet that will change very soon to "promise broken".

Way to not address anything of actual substance. ._.

This is very surprising and disappointing, as The Patriot Act was a fudgeing buzz word used to criticize the Bush administration. Why does it even make sense to renew this, because it certainly isn't going to help him politically. It's similar to how Obama could potentially turn Afghanistan into the next Iraq: pure hypocrisy.

@Demon Jelly: It better.

You kidding? Obama already HAS turned Afghanistan into a new Iraq. He's using the same ridiculous formula--let's bomb the almighty shizzle out of those damn terrorists and they'll all die!!!!eleventyoneoneoneone

And then Osama will magically emerge unscathed and we'll shoot him in the nuts or some shizzle.

I would approach the rest of your post, but you obviously aren't contributing to a healthy debate when you throw around crap accusing me of being a racist (Psst, you have a log in your eye )



^

~Sgt.Pepper

Would you like us to either praise Obama's choice or admit that it's something we don't agree with? I think what he's doing is a shame, but your incessant attacks on Obama seemed more important to me.

I lol'd so much at this!

I believe our expectations of what Obama should be like are far to perfect. We think he should do everything at once. I'm not Obamafan, but AT LEAST GIVE HIM A CHANCE. If he's that BAD he'll be impeached or won't be reelected.

Your talking about the country in which the people responsible for 9/11 ACTUALLY came from right? Is that the country your talking about? At least Obama can read a map and invade the right country.

Obama is operating on the same surge principles that actually put down KIA's in Iraq with the Bush Administration, only in smaller numbers of up to 4,000 troops. And Obama isn't actually bombing Afghanistan, he's cooperating with President Karzai to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban.

So what your saying is Obama actually going into the country and forming a diplomatic agreement then sending in troops with the President of that country's welcome is the same thing as blaming a country for terrorist attacks that had nothing to do with anyone inside of it?

And a reminder, we already had 17,000 troops in Afghanistan when Obama was elected. It is Bush that put those troops in there, Obama is simply working alongside a government who needs assistance in combating hostile elements within its borders.

Po.

The problem is, we're trying to force democracy down Afghanistan's throat, just like with Iraq, just like with Iran, just like with Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. etc.

No, there's nothing wrong with wanting the Taliban out. But shooting is not the answer here. That's why the Taliban still exists! If foreign investors would pump some money into agricultural projects set up by some capitalistically-minded Afghans, then we'd be going somewhere. Or hell, investing in weightlifting competitions (something becoming increasingly popular, apparently). Anything to keep the kiddos away from being interested in being a terrorist.

Like Clarkson said, the reason all these people are turning to radical Islam is because they're poor and bored. That is a dangerous combination. Being poor OR bored is one thing, but put the two together and you get the Middle East today.

Or Louisiana! *riotous laugh track plays in background*

In all seriousness, I must have missed the memo about "forcing democracy down Afghanistan's throat." I agree with you in principle, but we need some military action there. A lot more civil action, true, but the military action is necessary if we're going to defeat the Al Qaeda we already have - the current terrorists aren't going to give their bosses notice and stroll off to the nearest agricultural project in the Kabul suburbs or walk out of a suicide-bombing raid just to take part in a weight-lifting competition. We need to halt the rise of terrorism, true, but we can't leave the current ones alone or they'll keep on, erm, terrorizing us. Or whatever the heck you call their rampant crime sprees.

Did I say "in all seriousness?" If so, I'm an idiot.

Yeah, and that's why we need to find ways to help Afghanistan find a good leader. Someone who isn't corrupt (Karzai is), someone who's open to foreign investment (Karzai isn't), etc.

He's open to our being there, and that's about the long and short of it. But just shooting DEM TERRISTS all day isn't going to be worth shizzle.

My point was to not respond to that because Sgt Pepper didn't make this thread to discuss an issue, he made it to spew hatred towards Obama. And so, by discussing the issue it gives credence to the unhealthy vitriol he constantly pukes out.

My stance on the issue has been and will remain in line with the person who represents the "1" in the original vote of 99-1 for the USA PATRIOT Act, my esteemed senator, Russ Feingold.

Well, I'm not too surprised. He was doomed to fail in my opinion.

Yes, because every debate topic ever posted about Bush by you/other members while he was in office that you took part in were not debates, they were spewing gushers of hate towards Bush. [/sarcasm]

Get real buddy



Yes, because discussion is a bad thing.

~Sgt.Pepper

We never had a "honk if your president is not smarter than a 5th grader" signature. The amount of negativity and flat out hatred you give off towards Obama is completely irrational and unnecessary. You're just like those people that hope Obama fails.

Rush Limbaugh?

But all the hating on George Bush was perfectly fine.

I think we're qualified to judge on his performance in office after eight years.

We can't judge someone's performance in office when they're campaigning prior to an election.

I'm not too happy with the Obama presidency so far. And his dealing with the Patriot Act isn't helping. Hopefully he can pull off something soon that would change my mind.

And come on guys, the minute someone disagrees with Obama now, you guys immediately get angry. Yeah, Sgt. Pepper is biased (and he admits it), but seriously. He has an opinion too. You guys bashed Bush constantly while he was President.



thats becuz he ws stupid, duh.

People STRONGLY disliked Bush. People HATE Obama. Strong dislike means they want him out of office. Hate means threats against the President's life have gone up 400% since Obama has took office. There is a major difference between the type of feelings against Bush and the type of feelings against Obama. It's palpable.

Maybe because he seemed to be polarizing because of his views. Either people were going to hate him or love him.

'Cept us good ol' realists

Why then are you switching back and forth your views between topics? You're not a realist, you're a delusionist who only chooses to see what you want to see.

His performance so far isn't great but isn't terrible either.

Someone can't see humor.... <.<

My entire post was about explaining the difference between disliking Bush and hating Obama. There's absolutely no way you could have missed that.

A lot of people HATED Bush. And seriously, I don't really know many people who dislike Obama, let alone hate him. Maybe you're talking about skinheads?

So we aren't allowed to comment on their actions during the present, even though it is the exact opposite of what they talked about in their campaign, or what supporting members of their campaign talked about?

Okay, so I guess freedom of speech is out.



Pfft, of course not. After all, if we did actually do that, we would end up voting for who we would rather have, and that's just silly nonsense



If you think there aren't people that hate Bush, you are on Cloud Nine.

And yet magically, you have yet again failed to comment on Obama's action which this entire topic is about

~Sgt.Pepper