Okay - of late, I have seen a heard a lot of people, particularly Christian fundies, talking about “home schooling” their children.

From the Christian fundies point of view, the main incentive of home schooling is so that they can teach their children the bible, instead of less important things: like science and math – you know, “useless” stuff they won’t need.

Personally, I think that this is, essentially, dumbing down the next generation.

Now, proponents of Home Schooling will attempt to tell you that home schooled children score better – but I find these results rather skeptical, especially in consideration of the following data - which, for some reason is consistently quoted as their PROOF of the superiority of home schooling, to wit:



Now - read that again, closer. Do you see it?

Do you see the interesting fudging of the "facts" here to support the claim? They did NOT compare home schoolers to public schoolers. In fact, they compared home schoolers to other home schoolers.

Okay - well - let's debate:

Is home schooling better, or is it dumbing down the next generation?

I don't know really, it's definitely better to be at school to encounter people, which you'll do in everyday life when you have a job in most cases. The one good thing I'll say about homeschooling is that if a child has a certain interest (for me it's History, for example) then you can cater a little bit more to their interests, just using it to help with Literacy skills, etc.

It really depends on who's teaching.

I would not choose this form of education for my potential children. I can see why some people would choose home schooling, for example as a way of protecting their children from some of the more concerning trends common among pre-teens and teenagers. However, it seems there are more cons than pros. Home schooled students entering higher education are at a disadvantage socially; they have been deprived from what could be a major part of their social life. This is not to say home schooled children don't have social lives, but it can delay many important aspects of socialisation. Furthermore, home schooled students have limited exposure to diverse populations and opinions which could negatively affect them socially and educationally, as well as hinder them in forming their own attitudes, instead perhaps passed on by a well-meaning parent. I'm not implying that this is always the case concerning home schooling, however I believe the likelihood of these issues are significantly increased, which is why I disagree with home schooling.

First of all, anyone who says that homeschoolers are deprived of all social interaction are living in the fudgeing 1980s. If you really think that, YOU are the ones who need to get outside, not the homeschoolers.

Only ridiculously fundamentalist bats are keeping their kids from the outside world anymore. I was hardly deprived of social interaction. Now, there's these funny things called homeschool groups, where homeschooled kids meet on a scheduled basis (usually bi-weekly) and just interact, much like a public school setting. These unusual things go out and do odd things like field trips and visit places of interest to little kids (when I was younger, our group went to as many fun things as there are to be had in central Illinois--a dairy farm, a fish farm, and a water treatment facility). Also, other educational institutions (like libraries) offer field trips for the public to places like planetariums (we did that several times).

As far as academics, I was ranked "above average" among Florida students, and I was homeschooled for 13 years (kindergarten onwards), so, make your own judgments.

@2TPAMs: I would probably not pull my kids out of the public school system in Britain, honestly. I'd pull them out of the US school system, though. The US schools really suck for academics, honestly.

I'm not just home schooled because my mom and dad want to teach me christian value's, but because they want me to learn as much as I can. Homeschooling is very fun although I have never been to public-school. But their is one down side I hardly have any friends , because most kids meet friends at school and we are home schooled I really don't have any. So their is some pros and cons one of the pros is that your able to explore what you like the most (Like for me Math) and also if your sick or something you can just take off or go on a trip. And the cons are I don't have many friend's, you don't know any other people other then your family really, plus eventually your going to want to know more then your parent's know.

~Markbalex

i'm no fan of it

BUT i don't think it is altogether bad as long as certain tests are performed

for example in Belgium if you don't go to school a recognized teaching facility (aka a "normal" school) you have to perform exams at a state exam commission which tests if you have the knowledge to get the degree
problem is this isn't per year, you need to know everything anyone at a normal school should know at the age of 18 (other limits and 14, 12 and 6 i think but i'm not sure)

it gives great freedom for all schools to choose what they learn when but for homeschooling it also means there is no regular testing being organized before uni
and that is a serious problem

if you didn't get regular big pressure exams before forget getting anywhere at uni


also in the Belgian system this includes the teaching of darwinistic evolution, sex ed, world culture (different religions etc)



as a final note i do think that in general home schooled children are more likely to not be prepared for higher teaching because of the tests


the biggest problem i have with it however is that the children don't get enough social contact with people of their age
and that is a serious social handicap and the major point against homeschooling

at school children learn how to move in a social world, a world filled with people who aren't friends or relatives
and that is extremely important, to me as important as the knowledge learned at school

I know that but they the avergae homeschooled kid won't see as many people on a daily basis as people at school.

i really think that
there is no better school for life then being among people your age day in day out

knowledge isn't everything
a private teacher can indeed tutor a child better in knowledge
but that is only half of what a kid needs

I think a lot of parents abuse homeschooling to fit their own purposes. I've seen at least one parent decide to homeschool her children because she's "afraid of public schools" and "what values they teach their students." Her kids are 16 and 14 now, and I don't think they ever leave the house. It's really sad to see. Of course their mom is fudgeing crazy, so what do you expect.


School should be about education. As long as you get a proper education, I don't think it matters who gives it to you. If I homeschooled my kids, they'd be geniuses

Agreed, which is why I agree with Egghe's testing thing. That way it's known whether or not the kids have learned anything.

I am very saddened by the amount of misinformation that certain members posting here have demonstrated. I suggest you do research before making ignorant generalizations (which are false).



Having met a few of these people, I will agree with you completely. Such schooling is not "schooling". Rather it is brain washing. However, to make the generalization that only homeschoolers brain wash their children is to make a false generalization. There are plenty of religious schools who have the same outlook upon the world as the Christian homeschoolers you have applied the above to.
Also, to make the generalization that all homeschooled people are Christian is false.



No, homeschooling is not "dumbing down" the next generation. I can use myself as a case study if need be.

If you researched this, you would know that homeschooled people are required to submit work at least twice a year. If the students are shown not to have learned enough, when compared to public schools, that student is place into a public school.



Having been a homeschooled student, I can say that homeschooled students have plenty of activities open to them where they can meet other people.

I disagree completely about it being "definitely better to be at school to encounter people". Get out of your box. Homeschooled students do not "hole up" in their house year in, year out, and never see another human being outside of their family. Or do you mean to imply that every child who attends school is outgoing and the most friendly, nice person you will ever meet?



That is wrong, simply and absolutely wrong.

I will use myself as a case study to prove your point false if you require proof.



Wrong.

Without useing a personal example to prove the "diverse population" point false, I will simply say "wrong".

Tell me, where was it written that homeschooled students are barred from participating in the same activities as "normally" schooled children? Get out of your box, and do research.



Thank you, finally someone who did research.



Exactly.



So? A person attending school in Japan will see far more people on average (per day) then a person attending school in the United States. Does this mean we should increase the volume of children attending school in the United States?



Agreed.

~John

Well..........it all depends on the parents. It's impossible to generalize the entire population of home schooled kids. Parents are going to teach different things and through different methods.

Will this suck for some kids? Yes. Some parents will be terrible home schoolers either because of laziness, incomptience, etc. Others will be awesome and have very well educated kids.

As for socialization, I think that kids should not be home schooled their entire lives. School is an core part of society and I think it's important that kids experience it to some degree. Will home schooling make them socially awkward? I doubt it, unless their parents are crazy anyhow. Their are plenty of other activities that kids can make friends in.

As I said before, what I said does not apply to every person who is home schooled, however the likelihood of it is what deters me from home schooling my own potential children.


I never implied it is not possible for a home schooled student to be the same, socially as any other student. It just doesn't come as easily, which I would have thought was obvious. Someone else in this topic who was home schooled said himself he doesn't have many friends due to the fact he was home schooled and wasn't in a building with about a thousand other people every day. My home schooled cousin is also an example of this. Furthermore, although home schooled students can participate in said activities, it doesn't mean they will. They would also miss out on school activities like class debates and such. I don't have a problem with home schooling, I just believe by having my own children home schooled, they would be potentially missing out.

I don't feel like education should be mandatory once a child has learned basic math skills (Adding, subtracting and maybe multiplication and division.) and basic language skills. If a parent is prepared to teach there child that and is willing to allow them a choice after there old enough "to choose for themselves" i see nothing wrong with it. However from what i've seen alot of parents who try to homeschool there kids a fudgetards who couldn't teach there kids how to tie there shoes. I feel there should be some form of aptitude evaluation to decide whether a parent is teaching fit.

EDIT: Everyone elses post was tl;dr so i just posted my opinion without reading anyone elses.

EDIT2: Triple posts suck tbh.

John Adams, there is an expression thrown around in debating societies called 'I am the world' where you use yourself as the evidence as you do not fit the stereotype. Well done for not being socially inept, good for you, but we had nine students who were home schooled join our Sixth Form last year.

I'd consider one intelligent, the rest were quite average, but on general there social interaction was lower in the first months. The second thing that got them was the inability to adjust to school. The one I talk to used to wake at 10AM, work almost straight until 1PM and then work from 2PM to 3:30PM~ish. Now our day is 8:30 to around 5:30 and he died at the beginning. It destroyed him. His tutor also used to set very little homework, just night excercises. Now he has around an hour to two minimum of homework he really suffered. University can be a whole lot worse.

I don't agree with it, though I tolerate it, unless for religious reasons. I consider exclusion for relgious reasons to be highly detrimental to the advancement of a person. As someone said, you do not have your beliefs from your own choice, but the choice of your parents. And the whole thing about perfoming better seems to not exist with out sample. I know it is not representative but it is a few so I can gather a few examples. I have never been home schooled and outperform all of them

Although I can see where the homeschooling stereotypes come from, I can say from personal experience that it is wrong in many places. I myself was home schooled from birth to 9th grade, and wouldn't have it any other way if I had a choice. I will be doing the same with my kids.

Concerning social deprivation: What are we missing? The more I see of the world the more I am disappointed with it. When kids in elementary grades are kept at home instead of spending mind numbing hours in a school room, their mind (with proper instruction) develops better. Having someone you trust teach you in an environment you know, and working at your own pace is an extreme advantage. Eight year old kids in public school (especially the smarter ones) may very well become so bored, that boredom becomes natural, and the drive for excellence empties. Notice how home schooler's test scores are often higher? (Against public schooled kids mind you, there IS evidence if you look) It's not because we're all just naturally smarter, because we're not. It is because the learning process at home is much more efficient than the American public school system.

I have seen case after case in the public school I transferred to of people that are very smart, but simply don't learn because they hate the way school is run, taught, everything about it. (This is American school. It is likely a case by case deal)

As for the crash course with the real world? It's true. Coming out of homeschooling is a bit of a shock, but it's not that bad... I'm still very much as socially withdrawn as I was when I lived at home, and I like it that way. Although the process of learning needs to be experienced by everyone, the process of school does not.

However there is a point of going too far. Kids who get homeschooled through their senior year of highschool will most likely be caught off guard when they enter the college arena. I have seen that many times.

Homeschool may withhold the student's skills in a few areas such as the classroom atmosphere, homework, and dealing with a lot of people, but the ways that it often accelerates children outweighs by far. Greater mental growth, a personal will to succeed, and of course knowledge, trump any 'social skills' you might learn in elementary/middle school. The social skills they missed out on there can be easily caught up on by taking public high school.

I was home-schooled, but I hated not having anyone else to be around. I decided to go to public school and I like it WAAAAY better.

I've been homeschooled my entire life. I think it's great. Especially with the school districts I live in. I learned at whatever pace I wanted, and in reading I've always scored way above(testing and personal sit down meetings with an evaluator are required here too) because in my state the reading requirement is higher for homeschoolers than public schoolers. Actually, it's higher for about everything. My state doesn't seem to like it. And you're not always alone, every week I went to a thing for homeschoolers. We had some pretty awesome classes, and I still have strong friendships with the people, even with people I haven't seen in years. As long as you choose to try and have a social life, you probably will

Being home-schooled (and in a strongly Christian family as well), let me tell you the pros and cons.

Pros:
It can teach you to be a self-starter, which is definitely helpful in the real world.

Bringing up a child in a Christian family can give them good morals. Its purpose is not in any way to replace curriculum that an average public-schooled child would have, but to prevent public-schooled children from getting bad morals from other schoolkids (one bad apple spoils the lot).

It can help kids to learn more. If they are self-starters already, and have been taught that it's better to learn things than to be ignorant, they are probably going to want to learn.

Cons:

Less social interaction. Unless a concerted effort is made to take the child to social functions or they already have a lot of friends that are home-schooled, etc., the child will grow up with less social experience, which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater in that not only are you removing the bad peer pressure and environments, you are also taking out most of the good peer pressure (there is, by definition, 'good' pressure) and environments. This is the only reasonable con to home-schooling, but it is a big one. Being able to live and function in a society is a skill that may be even more important than anything else you learn in high school.

I agree, to a point. I have not had too much trouble getting used to college life. My main problem is waking up, but I have since I was very little had a really crappy sleep schedule (as in, even back in pre-school, which I did go to a public school for that). I was not born to have a decent sleep schedule.

I was under the impression that most home-schooled kids were usually above the average education level of their surrounding area. Also, they do get outside and meet people.

~~Samarkov

I do find it somewhat disturbing when fundies home school their children(as they give a really bad name for homeschooled kids), but also a good amount of hippies homeschool their children also, so try and not categorize one group of people in the same thing next time.
I also find it quite disturbing that we are once again basing intelligance on test scores. All test scores mean is that you're good at listening to whatever the teacher tells you to do and then pasting it onto a test. Its mindless work and is a horrible measure of intelligance. I dont mean to sound to boastful(and I know I am going to come off as it) but I get horrible test scores, yet I consider myself to be quite intelligent. I may not know any advanced math, but I am smart enough to know that if i were to go to college i would be ripped off of my money and my time wasted.
So even though i am not home schooled, and I worry for fundie homeschooled kids, i highly doubt homeschooled kids are dumbing down a generation - no, that is the work of the government.

I believe that parts of your post are very ignorant, Bylaunte. Being homeschooled for five years, not only did I learn things like the Bible, but I also excelled in science and math. I have never heard of anybody not teaching their children math and science, at least not on a scale worth mentioning.

http://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Statisti...s_Homeschooling
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1393-Ed...han-86-of-peers

There's plenty of evidence to show that homeschooled kids are, in general, smarter than public schooled children.

Here's also something from your link:

The bolded part does indeed point out that they were compared to public schooled children. The italicized part points out that the children homeschooled for two years or more outsmarted those who were homeschooled for two years or less, or less meaning not homeschooled at all. Plus, the entire second part was just a small portion of the study, it wasn't the whole thing.

Purhaps you would have ended up wasting your time and money however societal norms dictate that the average person needs a post secondary education to be successful. I personally took 1 year of university and realised it wouldn't help me in what i wanted to do but thats not the case for the average person.
Unfortunately those Annoying and retarded fact memorisation based tests and nonsense college education mean alot to the grey haired dimwits who are looking at you for an upper 4 figure+ job.

I'm not sure that statistic is actually useful for anything- it's an average test score comparing home schoolers with public schoolers. Do you get thousands of kids who don't give a fudge about school in the home schooled category? No. You do in public schools though. Do you get thousands of kids who barely reach the poverty level in home schools? No, but you do in public schools.

You're comparing an apple to a chair, imo.

I never understood why home schooling was so popular. Unless you were getting bullied I see no problem of going to a school with other kids.
Yes there is that problem parents face to get a better education from a home tutor but that link to play and interact with other kids is severed in my opinion. People are too focused nowadays on education and jobs and not really seeing the whole point of life. All this is doing that I see is dividing the gap between rich and poor, smart and dumb larger.

You believe that the universe was created by your imaginary friend -- you've already demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of science right there.





See -- you've MISREAD the criteria - I thought you were supposed to be "good" at science?

No - the study was a comparison between two different groups of HOMESCHOOLED children. Read it again.




Not to mention that EVERY child in public school writes that test -- the same cannot be said for every homeschooled child.

See -- you've MISREAD the criteria - I thought you were supposed to be "good" at science?

No - the study was a comparison between two different groups of HOMESCHOOLED children. Read it again.


I think your the one who misread it.

~Markbalex

ROFLMAO!

Well home-schoolers - let's go back to the original SOURCE material, shall we?



Hmmm - it says a study of HOMESCHOOLED STUDENTS -- not a comparative study of homeschooled and public schooled children.

Does it not say that "homschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subject's".

~Markbalex

I agree with this, test scores are a very poor factor in measuring the effectiveness of teaching. I know I'm taught in many lessons just to remember something till the exam then forget about it, not even a mention of the lessons this information shows us.... You don't need an excellent exam grade to be smart, yet I guess most people see it that way.

It is indicative of your ability to learn, though. (Retention, etc) It's not entirely useless. It teaches you valuable study skills that you can apply towards material that actually matters to your life.

True but purhaps it could evaluate our ability to learn important things that actually matter and will help me in life? (Or at the very least be somewhat interesting?)

Science hasn't disproved God, because, if you knew anything about science or logic at all, you'd know that nothing can be logically disproven. You have to prove something for it to be accepted as fact.


I did read it, but you totally grossly misinterpreted Do you understand what one year of homeschooling or less even means? I underlined, bolded and italicized the keywords. Less than one year of homeschooling means no homeschooling whatsoever, at all. If you didn't catch that, I'm truly sorry, I really am.


Read what I said above. If you think somebody can be homeschooled for less than a year, but still be homeschooled, you need to rethink. Drastically.

Also, Blyaunte, what about those links I posted? What about the following, all from the source you provided for us:




...and much, much more. But hey, you can just discount those findings if you want. Kind of like how you ignored the links I posted previously in this topic.

Wow, I find that incredibly offensive. You are basically making the jump in conclusion that all homeschoolers are religious fanatics that will just teach their kids some stuff about the bible while neglecting the more important issues of mathematics, science, and stuff.

If I had accurate, reliable, data of other students, I would gladly use those sources. However, I have yet to find such a case study.



Can you not say that there were such students who were not homeschooled? Or do you mean to imply the only students who have lower social interaction are homeschooled students?



You are incorrect about the beliefs. People around the kid influence their beliefs, to an extent. You can look at religious schools as an example.



First off, I find it interesting that you skipped my previous post.

Also, just because people are Christian does not mean they have "already demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of science right there". Perhaps you are the one who should be doing research into what the definition of "Christian" is, and then the definition of "Science". Then perhaps, realize who has "demonstrated a complete lack of understanding". I can assure you, it is not Finway.


How do you think they came to the conclusion that the scores were higher? They took the homeschooled students results and compared them to non-homeschooled students' results.

Also, what does this have to do with how "good" a person is at science?



I highly doubt they compared the results to every non-homeschooled student. Or the results would have been thrown out as not being reliable. It is more likely, however, that they took the higher (if not highest) non-homeschooled grades and compared them to the homeschooled ones.



Correction, it says " a study of 5,402 homeschooled students from 1,657 families was released." There were more homeschooled families in the United States at the time then "1,657".

You realize that in order to get the data they had to take non-homeschooled students scores and compare them? It is quite likely they took a random sample from the top grades of the non-homeschooled students and compared them.

It is further likely that this study was a "double-blind study", (and the ones done after it probably were too) to ensure the accuracy of the results. The other studies confirm what the one you are quoting states.

You do know how studies such as this (the above one) are conducted?

~John

I am highly doubtful of that.

I don't understand why people associate Christianity with morality, I've met a lot of Christians, and very few of those people are what you'd call "moral".

To address this, I am homeschooled, to an extent. I have actual teachers and live virtual classes, I am not being denied a decent education. Having said that my parents put me into this virtual school to try and keep me a good little christian boy... It didn't work anyway.
I think if you don't have a GED you shouldn't be allowed to teach your children, just because you don't believe in evolution/science/physics doesn't mean it isn't true, and denying your children that education should be child abuse.

So if If I had a child and I didn't tell him about evolution then I should be charged with child abuse? So then just about everybody in the world should be charged with it....

~Markbalex

If you had a child and refused to let that child have a proper education (example; teaching children that evolution doesn't exist cause god made us in his image) then you should be charged with child abuse. Just that simple, just that complex.

And what if god did make us in his image? Hmm? Then why would I teach my child about evolution?

~Markbalex

Prove it, oh wait.. you can't.

On the other hand, evolution is one of the most well proven scientific theories out there... Denying children education should be against the law, in fact if I'm not mistaken it is against the law.

Who says that teaching evolution is a constituent of a proper education?

Its a central part of biology, how does skipping it allow students a proper education?

Try reading the bible that should help some...

~Markbalex

Christianity is real because Christianity says that Christianity is real!

How can you argue with that logic!!

Din't say it would clear everything up it'll help a little bit though .

~Markbalex

I'm homeschooled, and I can tell you that the good way of homeschooling isn't like the ones you've heard on TV (like christian homeschooling ). And I don't do the christian version either, I'm agnostic

Homeschooling all depends on how you do it, really
I do the same things that public school kids do, I have tests, I take all the same subjects, I'm taking my U.S. History SAT's this winter, (But I'll be going to Norwalk CC next year for 10th grade)

The good thing about homeschooling is, basically, you get the same benefits as regular school, but it can be a lot more flexible, and even fun (but I won't stress "fun" ) And the rumors that homeschooling kids haven't got friends cause they don't go to school is so not true We do things like classes, co-ops, etc. and I've got like 30+ good irl friends, so don't believe what you hear all the time

So there's just a basic view of a pretty good, and popular way of homeschooling, without all the religious stuff
And even though I do like homeschooling, and chose it over public school when I dropped out of private school, I do really want to start going to Norwalk soon, so it's not like homeschooling is the greatest thing ever, and all of the homeschooling kids love it

So, I'm going to write a book on the teachings of invisible pink unicorns, and since i say that it is true and i pray to the invisible pink unicorns they have to be real. Lilshu, will you join me and together we will reclaim the world in the name of the great holy invisible pink unicorns? After all, because we say something its automatically fact... Ah Creationism logic, it describes its own flaws better than anyone else could.

BAH YOUR PINK UNICORN WORSHIPPING SOCIETY WILL BE BURNED FOR ITS INFIDELITY! THERE IS NO GOD EXCEPT FOR PICKLES THE FLYING YELLOW HIPPO! YOU SHALL PAY INFIDELS!
[/Bad Parody]

Your post is basically what i've said several times in this debate except everyone has seemed to ignore it because i've posted alot of tl;dr around it. Thank you and if you'll take me i'de like to join you in your Invisble Pink Unicorn crusade.