You're just using it wrong. Magic, quite simply, is not to be used like Range and Melee is. Range and Melee can only hit one target at a time, while magic (using Ancients) can hit multiple targets at once.

To show similarity, i'll use a metaphor. Magic is like a real-life nuclear bomb. You wouldn't use a nuke like you would use an Ak-47, now would you? No, nukes are used to hit many things at once, and obliterate them all, while an Ak-47 is made to take out individuals.

And this is where most people die while using magic. They try to use Magic exactly like they're used to using Range and Melee, when, in reality, this isn't the best way to go. You use your advantage, hitting multiple people at once. If you consistently attack a crowd of people, you're likely to kill them quickly, especially when using the Ice spells.

Another thing I've seen used rarely is full Ahrim's and shadow spells. When you do this, you're likely to lower the enemy's Attack and Strength levels to nothing, rendering them incapable. Once you've lowered their stats, you can use smoke and ice spells to poison them, and stop them dead in their tracks.

There is still the dragonhide problem, where a meleer throws on black d'hide, and is invincible to magic. I think a nice -50 to all melee attack stats would solve this problem, no? The only other thing I can think of is the cost of using magic. I have no solutions to this, if anyone can help, please do so.

tl;dr: Magic is like a nuke. You use a nuke to kill lots of people. Not just one person. And magic takes more skill than range or melee.

Mods: If this is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it.

Thats only one reason, I will give reasons why magic is overpowered.

You cannot "pure" with magic, you can get defence pures, strength pures, range pures, no such thing as a magic pure.
Magic has the weakest defence allowing melee and range to do massive hits the mage
D'hide has no melee refrainments so meleers can wear it whenever they are facing a mage
Magic is crap at 1v1

Any arguements?

Ye magic is crap its only good as a support skill using it by itself is pretty stupid. In f2p magic is completely useless Fire blast is the best and its only good in groups/clans cause they have bind aswell. In p2p magic is only good for ancients/ venge/ tb in pvp cant really use to k0

Magic is still underpowered. So you expect that because you can multi-hit you can take down a group of people, all trying to kill you?
As well as the armour, melee and ranged can also hit consistently high, unlike magic, which would only hit consistently if the person you're attacking was wearing melee armour.

I agree that magic is underpowered, but in conjunction with other skills its helpful.

Ice barrage - then step away- d-bow spec.
Ice barrage - run and save yourself
Ice barrage - step back and use ranged attacks

the above examples are ways magic can be helpful in conjunction with other skills. (not the only examples)
you also have to remember that magic will never be as good as the other skills because it gets your combat level up slower.

I hope I've helped

Tell me.. Are you really gonna be fighting 9 opponents at a time? and you only got to fail two casts and you are speced out. Magic is underpowered.

Agreed. Magic is underpowered when the meleers come rushing at you with their AGS, killing you 95% of the time.

All above argument are indeed valid. Mages do have awful armor, and, again, there's the D'hide problem. But Magic takes skill to use. (and money ) If you use all four of the Ancient spell types, with Ahrim's a melee'r won't be able to do anything.

You all are still trying to use Magic like you are Melee and Range, which is impossible, and you're going to lose. Go back to the nuke metaphor. You sure as hell aren't going to use a nuke on a single guy, are you?

For some insight, see this: http://forum.tip.it/topic/215352-magic-und...update-july-26/ (god forbid I post a link to Tip.it, but oh well)

So besides the fact that you have no special bonus when fighting a group of people (you actually have the same accuracy and the same hits if you fight only one person with Ice barrage! ) and that the armor mages have is complete crap at defending them even from the faction of the Combat Triangle they're supposed to be good against (which can also use Dragonhide), Magic's max hit is a joke. I mean, come on... 35 (Maybe 36, I don't know if the 32+3.2 is rounded down to 35 or 36, but still)? Meleers and Rangers can hit above 90s on PvP and well over 100 against monsters.

Stack bonusing is much slower than normal spell casting, I can stack hit with bow and 2h, what's the difference? D hide makes magic underpowered and magic isn't a nuke, it is simply an attack that is de-powered by some armours and fails at attacking at close range, it needs a boost, honestly the arguments you base on are just of one. Now back to the topic you posted, this has been posted before and I will give my arguments to it.

Ok I realise that this is only for members, big disadvantage to f2p which is my first argument.
With stack hitting, it takes more time and still hits lowER than most, rangers can totally nullify the damage and meleers can wear d'hide to reduce damage, protect from magic prayer isn't helpful either.

Ice is known as the ancient spells that are the LEAST accurate and shadow as the most accurate, with that in mind, stack hitting might miss or hit low most of the time and magic is kinda not that accurate. Stack hitting also reduces the speed of the spells and fails more easily, it is not the way to power or use magic successfully.

Ice blitz and shadow barrage hits quite...low, 29 is not that much and IMO d'hide could nullify the effects. Although this is quite aggressive, this lacks accuracy making it hit lower on a long term basis.

I say the same with Ice blitz and blood barrage but smoke barrage and shadow barrage hits even lower, although more accurate, it is quite troublesome to use and could not decapitate a player quickly. This spell is neither biased on defensiveness or aggressiveness so it takes more patience to use.

Smoke and blood barrage is more accurate and is more of a defensive combination than the above meaning it still fails with aggressively attacking and the mage will fall to more skilled meleers and rangers.

Ice and shadow barrage is the one I would choose if I was stuck with magic, a medium accuracy and high hitting spell which is aggressive and defensive so this is quite good, no arguments apart form the speed of this and the frustration when you need to stay a certain distance.

Finally ice barrage and blood barrage needs a good distance to set this up, as the opponent closes in this is rendered useless really, although it has medium damage, it's accuracy is limited and the slowness of this is immense.

Armours are limited for the mage, the ones suggested were enormously expensive or they lacked magic attack or range/melee defence, the mge needs more armours actually dedicated to them so they don't use shields for fighting dragons or armour for the ranger.

I have no arguments for the staff.

And melee weapons are out of the point, we are making a magic pure (maybe defence) not a hybrid.
Same with triple stacking, this is a magic pure not a range and magic hybrid.

That's all I have to say ATM.

Firemaking and Construction are also severely underpowered in PvP.
If Magic has the right to have it's place in PvP, I feel those two have it aswell.

Mario, what are you trying to say?

People take for granted that Magic should be a skill that has some primary use in PvP, while there is no real reason to believe that.

Magic has some other uses outside PvP and outside combat as a whole. Making it more powerful in PvP would completely overpower the skill. I see no reason why it cannot be a supportive skill such as Prayer.

So if people want Magic to have power in PvP, I want Construction or Firemaking, which have similar properties, to have power in PvP. It could make sense if introduced correctly.

I suppose you could come up with the combat triangle, but that concept seems like pure fiction nowadays to me.

People that say Magic is underpowered clearly have never PKed before. Not only you can stop people from teleporting but you can freeze, hit multiple targets and use this spell called vengeance that works like a super ring of recoil. What else do you want? An instant kill spell or something?

I suppose people want to be able to fight purely with magic as easily as with Meele or Range.

How about you go in a BH world with the Lunar spellbook see how useful vengeance is on it's own?Or go with ahrim's,ancient staff and runes for barrage without any melee/ranged wep and see if you get any kills,heck the normal spellbook is even worse.

Plus even JaGeX agree that magic is underpowered,have they not pked with mage before?I doubt it.

Edit:

Hey warriors,why should you get 80+ equipment such as the armour and weapons soon to be released?You can already 2 hit someone no matter his HP lvl.

Hey ranger's,why should you get any equipment at all,you can 1 spec someone unless he's over 96 hp which mostly for mains is 118+ combat.

You say that people who claim magic is underpowered have never PKed in their lives before,when your gallery was open i didn't see a mage kill?You didn't even consider the possibility of you getting the kill thus not even using it.

If you want more info show me a few vids of pure mage pking at lvls 60+.

Lunar magic is support magic. Your supposed to use vengeance spells with Melee or Ranged.

Is that a joke or something? I've lost the count of the number of people I killed using only Magic.

After reading your post I'm pretty sure your the one that has never PKed with Magic before.

Thank you, Micael and Mario. I agree wholeheartedly that Magic isn't supposed to be only for combat, but i'm tired of people saying that 'Z0MG M4g1c 1zz und3rp0w3r3d!!!11one!' Just because Magic takes brainpower to use (which most RS players seem to lack ) doesn't mean that it's useless and underpowered.

You said mages have a "super ring of recoil".Mind telling me how are they able to use it in combat when you say that the Lunar spellbook is a supportive one?

Also i'd like some kill pics please,And i indeed have pked with magic,the results were horrible,not to mention i have never died against mages in wild at combat lvls 40+.



Yes but it's meant for combat as well and seeing that noone pks using magic alone anymore makes you question it's adaptability to these "new" weps Godswords,D bow just to name a few.

Oh and before i forget.

Micael are you insinuating that you know more about magic than JaGeX does?They admit it's underpowered and they support their attempt to convince people with facts.I don't see you having any fact to prove them wrong.I myself am only lvl 100 but i believe that with some D'hide i could beat a mage my lvl which probably will have 99 Magic,Defence and maybe hitpoints,have in mind i'm reffering to F2P,in P2P people tend to have pk builds that render mage tanks utterly useless and a waste of time and money.

Still no one has commented on my argument yet, I want feedback, I want to know if you disagree or agree.

Are you serious? Have you SEEN low levelled F2P pking? 60% of them are mages.

Nope, I have seen hardly any mages even at low level.

Seems like you edited your post.


If I have Torags or Dharoks who would 2 hit me?
Some people PK for fun with crappy armour and welfare, and some people like me PK for fun and to make money, in other words we don't use crappy armour/welfare, I've been killed with good armour yeah, nobody is invincible but I've never been 2-hit.

That was my F2P gallery.
PKing with Magic in F2P fails because your max hit is like 18. But in P2P I PK with Magic and I've made a lot of money. Now that I'm back from my 3 week break I might start a P2P Magic gallery just to shut you up.


Ever heard of I Mahatma I? I admit I haven't checked his new videos but his old school ones are all with god spells. NORMAL SPELLBOOK.

Predator:

Is that a serious question? Vengeance is a support spell, it's a spell intended to damage your opponent in an indirect way, it works exactly like a ring of recoil. Really if you suck with Magic don't use it nobody is forcing you to PK with Magic but just because you can't do it doesn't mean Magic is underpowered.

1 Thing: Micael will have 75 kill pics stuffed in your inbox in ~ 30 mins from now. I've seen his gallery he had
Edit: oh yea that was an f2p gallery, still mighty nice and i bet there would still be a ton

But yes Magic is still underpowered, though it does have more kill potential then most people think, (burst + blitz combo) But yes it needs a major revamp. To be truthful it takes alot of luck (and skill) to k.o. someone with pure mage. Its ko potential is eww.

I'm sorry but when did I claim I know more than Jagex? Can you show me some proof of Jagex admitting Magic is underpowered please?
You seem to think PKing is only 1v1 based you forgot about clans do you have any idea how useful Magic is when your with a clan? Freezing multiple targets? Stop people from teleporting? Using just Magic against a well geared person would probably be a bad idea 50% of the time because most people use Ranged and Magic isn't very good to K0 but Hybrid PKing is probably the best PKing method there is atm and It's only good because you can Freeze/Teleblock your opponents, something you can't do with Melee or Ranged. Any DECENT PKer at MY level fights with Vengeance because It's a HUGE help.

I've seen a few vids where he uses magic WITH melee and ranged.With your logic Elvemage is a great magician.

@Lunar,i was talking about purely mage pking.

Micael i'm not saying someone would two hit you but i'm pointing out that there is a small possibility but there's an even smaller possibility a mage 5 hits some guy even with full armour on.Most gloves/braces/capes/boots provide mage defence increasing bonuses anyway.

Also Mahatma used normal spellbook in the old times,where nobody even knew what a godsword or a crossbow or a dark bow was,and might i add people used to go deep in the old days,how often do you see a lone warrior/ranger/mage at the dark knight castle/graveyard of shadows?

Also just because i'm cheap and impatient and don't train magic doesn't mean others don't,in fact i would train magic if i felt it was actualy worth my time,but clearly it is not.G'night btw.

Edit:You didn't claim,you insinuated,by rushing about how mage isn't underpowered and when i can use my computer again i'll dig and find an article.

Forgive my ignorence but i mostly see 1v1 pkers.Hybrids also use other attack styles other than magic,but i agree that magic is most useful when deep,but that rarely happens.

Yes it's easier to K0 with Melee/Ranged than with Magic but it's also easier to escape from some Meleeing/Ranging than from someone with ancients.

With this talk about "skilled" mages, have you ever thought of "skilled" meleers or rangers or have we just overlooked them, or maybe there isn't any.

It takes a lot more skill to PK with Magic/Hybrid than just Ranged or Melee.

It seems to me that the people claiming that magic is overpowered are only thinking about 1v1 combat it's obviously hard for a mage to beat someone in a fair fight, because robes give crappy protection and most spells don't hit very high, but PKing isn't just solo. Magic rules with an iron fist in multi, I've seen a bunch of people with no arm only and just barrage runes take out big clans with decent gear.

Try F2P. I have a mage pure (Jazinthebox).

Please forgive me but I'll have to quote some parts of your post again, I just noticed some things you said:

Ok, don't take this as an insult but have you ever left Edgeville? Theres a clan named Welfarers who PK literally 24/7 deep wilderness, their clan chat is always open with 50+ people, a lot of other clans have mini teams that PK on multi everyday and then you have the big clans like RoT, Brutality, RDK etc. A lot of people PK in deep Wilderness, I'm pretty sure your just not looking in the right places.
Magic is supposed to be used more like a support skill not just in RuneScape but in all the other big MMORPGs. As for the Mahatma thing just because there are newer and better ways to PK doesn't mean the old ways suck. The 9mm spectre auto gun is great and much better than a M1 Garand, but you still die if you get shot by a M1.

I'm with Mike Fat. Clans don't work in non-Multi areas, but are super-effective in Multi. Not all areas of the Wilderness after Edgeville are Multi, though, so clans have to pick and choose where to PK.

We have to agree to disagree. The M1 Garand is a powerful rifle, the only suckish part is only 8 rounds, and no realoading, unless your clip is empty.

OT: Thanks. You bring up amazing points. I haven't had time to really respond.

@error404's second post:

Yes, stacking spells takes longer, but if your target is at a distance (which it should be, farcasting is the mage's advantage) comboing spells rips apart any meleer. Unless they're wearing D'Hides, which we all agree should be changed.

It is indeed true that Magic wasn't made only for Combat. But what was the Ancient Spellbook made for other then the combat spells and the two teleports that are actually useful for something?
In my oppinion, they should buff the Ancient Magicks Spellbook's max hit. 36 is... not enough compared to Melee or Ranged.

I totally agree. I use melee, much more usefull.

Chances are, if you cast Barrage, and you don't kill them, fail the next few spells, you have a few weakened, but still a huge amount, of people swarming you and smacking at you with swords. A mage would be ripped apart by then.

F2P's best weapon would be as good as an black 2H then... Also, if you attack multiple targets then you have ten melee opponents vs one low armor mage. You have ten times less firepower, hp, defense, etc. In F2P, magic is underpowered with a max of 16 and slow hits. Range in F2P has a max of 17 and is rapid, and Melee has over 35 max and fast to very fast speed in comparison to mages. My solution is slightly increased speed, higher defense armor, more damage (maybe +5), more accuracy and reduced effect of dragonhide.

This is purely the effects in F2P. I don't know enough of P2P magic to talk about it.

That's mainly for Red and Black D'hide. I'm posting mainly about P2P armors, and I was thinking of the whip. I'm a firm believer that Dragonhide should only be used by Rangers. Hybriding is useful, but when Meleers are getting so much advantage over their (supposed) killers, then it becomes unfair.

I don't really know how to 'fix' F2P magic, besides letting them use the Wave spells, and snare.

Okay, you're one of those people who think that Magic is for PVP or for Main combat, truthly speaking, it's not. It's a massive support combat skill and is great outside PVP. Can you heal people with meele or range, or teleport with meele or range? Magic is more of a non-combat skill than it is a combat one.

I am f2p. I hardly see any, IMO when you level up with mage it's power decreases.

UNDERPOWERD !? HA!? barrage 30s? for hybrids watch a spark mac in his new hybriding it is not underpowerd

But that is a hybrid, not a pure.

Check out w1zk1ll1ng for a magic pure. There are sooooooo many magic pures. Man, check out some info before you post.

One thing's for sure- there are more mage pures in F2P than range pures PvPing.

The disadvantage of low level mage puring is that as you level up, your power somewhat decreases, this is why I see no high/medium level mage pures, I may be wrong if I am saying there are no low level pures but certainly, mid level and high level mage pures are of a lacking.

That statement perfectly sums up what bothers me.
Why do people think it's perfectly natural that there should be a way to efficiently use mage pures in high lvl PvP?

Why do people think it's perfectly natural that there should be a way to efficiently use strength pures in high lvl PvP?

May I point out that these can be used?
My point: Just because some other combat forms can be used in a pure form (strength being an example), people think Magic should be modified in a way that it can be used purely and efficiently.

And the good ancient magicks spells are all multi-target which brings us back to the original question of this topic. Magic is not overpowered. 1v1 fights Magic is... decent, yeah it's not as good as Ranged or Melee, but in multi-combat areas is much better.

Maybe, but a mage is supposed to be PKing in multi-combat areas with a team too you know? A team of ancienters would rip apart a team of meleers/rangers.

Great another person complaining about Magic being underpowered and completely ignoring the multi-combat aspect of PvP. When your with a clan/team and you pile a guy in full Rune who do you think that gets the kill? A ranger, a warrior or a mage?
Here, I'll give you a hint to help you out:

Did you bother reading any of this thread before posting? Magic is not a pure combat skill, it's a skill that is supposed to be combined with other skills to be effective.