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Sam Boyz

God Vs. Atheism

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I'm curious, Sam Boyz. Chapter 5 verse 51 of the Koran says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another."

 

So Muslims have been commanded by their holy text to not befriend Jews and Christians?

 

This is a reference to times of war, these verses corraborate:

 

God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)

 

God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (Quran 60:9)

 

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed). (Quran 5:57).

 

I'll expand on this in my next post <_<

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Sultan, wat's wrong with Christians and Jews, why should they not be your friends at any time?

i belive they had war at one point in their history??? (i might be way off, but its what i have heard!!)

 

Many of Jesus' miracles, as well as some of the ones in the Old Testament, have already been proved possible, albeit at extremely low levels of possibilities.

 

So its been proven that people are able to cure the blind and turn water into wine?? please expand into how they have been proven possible!!

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about big bangs or puffs of smoke at the beginning of the universe (actually the big bang would be somewhat like a puff of smoke...)

 

It says right there 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' That doesn't leave much room for big bangs. It says as directly as you can that God created it, not that he created a big bang or anything so can we leave that out of this.

It says inseveral places that "God stretches out the heavens like a tent" infact the idea of the universe expanding from a central point was proposed by a preist from what it said in the bible,

 

My whole point is that even the simplest bacteria are so complicated that the chances of one 'coming together' just like that are astronomically small. Anyways, all the stuff that goes into a bacteria is only made by other living things. They are proteins, carbohydrates, lipids and nucleic acids. Also, these are each composed of at least 20 different amino acids that must come together at the same time, all and not only 19 or whatever but all at once. Scientists have created amino acids in extreme laboratory conditions which may not be so likely in nature. Also, they cannot create each of the different types of amino acids that are needed. One of the ways that these amino acids have been made what by mixing several toxic chemicals together and zapping them with deadly amounts of electricity (i don't remember exactly how, sorry, if you can give me some insight on this please do). The mixture they came out with was something like 3% amino acids and the rest tar and other toxic stuff that degrades and kills any living thing and destroys amino acids.
We can assume that if life did occur that way, there was alot of instances of amino acids being created and failing as life, and with our share of luck it lead to life, I can't find any links on the amino acid creation thing apart from creationist sites, and is it possible that all that mud and goo could be interpreted as clay ?.

 

Sultan, wat's wrong with Christians and Jews, why should they not be your friends at any time?
The Muslims were on pretty good terms with Jews and native Christains, during the crusades,

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God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)
I don't know about you, but I treat everybody I meet with kindness and justice. And justice doesn't have to be in a friendly way. A Muslim could say that beheading a former Muslim who converted to Christianity is just.

 

Just because I deal kindly and justly with people doesn't mean I count them as friends.

 

Edit: Here's something else that really scares me as I was reading through the Koran (Pickthall).

 

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

Muslims believe that men are better than women? Scourge them? So men have the right to beat women if they fear rebellion from them? :P

 

Islam holds that the Koran is a whole, unchanged text directly from Allah, correct? So what does Yusuf Ali think he's doing?

 

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Beat them... BUT NOT TOO HARD! :mellow:

 

Ali's basically re-interpreting the Koran and sullying Allah's word. Shouldn't someone chop his head off for that?

Edited by Dissentor

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Your theory is flawed at the end, it dosen't always work that way .... it's more like taking one step forward and taking 1/4 of a step backwards then.
If a person with SSA survives malaria and were many die, they get to pass on their genes, natural selection is not about "moving forward" its about survival if SSA, helps you survive in a malaria ridden enviroment then it will catch on with the genes of the population, its simple and not too hard to understand.

 

Yeah but they were designed by someone, it's not like it was made from outta no where by unconscious mechanisms like natural selection ....
The example works to a certain extent, lets just pretend these sticks are animals of which a few are clubs, these wild sticks roams roam the wilderness hunting for lets say ... noobs, when the sticks find a noob they beat it up, then eat it, one day the noobs start getting stronger, only the club sticks have a chance aginst the fearsome noobs and all the regular sticks die off, leaving only the clubs, the clubs have lots of baby clubs, and these continue hunting noobs, but those wily noobs just keep getting stronger, randomly a club gives birth to an axe, the axe can kill noobs much more effectivly than clubs, and as the noobs get stronger only the axe (and its offspring) can hunt the noobs, and the clubs die off, its unconsious but the strongest live on when the weakest die, ... now, nobody laugh at me please ...

I dont see this logic. I see that adaptation happens, creatures changing to suit there environment, but not change between speces. The change between speces is so great.

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Actually, Steve, a lot of major religions believe that men are superior to women. One of the reasons why i refuse to pursue my faith. :beret:

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I dont see this logic. I see that adaptation happens, creatures changing to suit there environment, but not change between speces. The change between speces is so great.
Change from species only happens after a very long time, lets go back to the sticks again, When the noobs began to get stronger some of the sticks migrated to a place where the noobs are weaker, these sticks have no pressure to change to meet the enviroment so they can survive as sticks, the other sticks continue evolving into axes, etc, lets say at the new stick tribe there food source (noobs) gets scarce, so some start to eat berries aswell as noobs, most the sticks arn't suited for berries, but the ones that have the stomach to take them are can eat them and survive,eventually the noobs die out in the new stick region, and the sticks go fully onto eating berries, after I don't know lets say a million years, the berry eating sticks and the axes have grown so genetically different that their no longer compatable.

 

Macro evolution happens over millions of years, you don't go to bed and wake up and your dog is a seal, I was describing micro evolution and natural selection in the example, but macro evolution isn't that different, theres no reason that speices can't changegiven enough time.

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God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)
I don't know about you, but I treat everybody I meet with kindness and justice. And justice doesn't have to be in a friendly way. A Muslim could say that beheading a former Muslim who converted to Christianity is just.

 

Just because I deal kindly and justly with people doesn't mean I count them as friends.

 

Edit: Here's something else that really scares me as I was reading through the Koran (Pickthall).

 

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

Muslims believe that men are better than women? Scourge them? So men have the right to beat women if they fear rebellion from them? :box:

 

Islam holds that the Koran is a whole, unchanged text directly from Allah, correct? So what does Yusuf Ali think he's doing?

 

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Beat them... BUT NOT TOO HARD! :beret:

 

Ali's basically re-interpreting the Koran and sullying Allah's word. Shouldn't someone chop his head off for that?

ok im muslim...and society has changed back then....and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

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you don't go to bed and wake up and your dog is a seal,

 

:beret::box::rolleyes::pirate2: :pirate2: :glasses: :glasses: ................ but for real wouldnt that be sweet???

 

isnt it possible to "speed up" evolution?? like a catalyst speeds up chemical reactions

 

and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

 

why does it seem to me that u think thats a good thing?? you cant justify the bad things Allah preaches

Edited by Rue_Kin

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I'm curious, Sam Boyz. Chapter 5 verse 51 of the Koran says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another."

 

So Muslims have been commanded by their holy text to not befriend Jews and Christians?

 

We normally take Christians and Jews as our friends. You must have gotten some wrong info.

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ok im muslim...and society has changed back then....and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

Not in Christianity...

 

I'm curious, Sam Boyz. Chapter 5 verse 51 of the Koran says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another."

 

So Muslims have been commanded by their holy text to not befriend Jews and Christians?

 

We normally take Christians and Jews as our friends. You must have gotten some wrong info.

Um, I'm quoting straight out of Pickthall's version of the Koran. I have a copy of it in front of me as I'm typing.

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ok im muslim...and society has changed back then....and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

Not in Christianity...

 

I'm curious, Sam Boyz. Chapter 5 verse 51 of the Koran says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another."

 

So Muslims have been commanded by their holy text to not befriend Jews and Christians?

 

We normally take Christians and Jews as our friends. You must have gotten some wrong info.

Um, I'm quoting straight out of Pickthall's version of the Koran. I have a copy of it in front of me as I'm typing.

 

Christianity teaches to love everyone, no matter who it is.

I follow that example and I haven't met a person that I truly hate (though I have met people that I dislike).

And in Christianity, men and women are equal, although not everyone follows that rule.

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God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)
I don't know about you, but I treat everybody I meet with kindness and justice. And justice doesn't have to be in a friendly way. A Muslim could say that beheading a former Muslim who converted to Christianity is just.

 

Just because I deal kindly and justly with people doesn't mean I count them as friends.

 

Edit: Here's something else that really scares me as I was reading through the Koran (Pickthall).

 

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

Muslims believe that men are better than women? Scourge them? So men have the right to beat women if they fear rebellion from them? :box:

 

Islam holds that the Koran is a whole, unchanged text directly from Allah, correct? So what does Yusuf Ali think he's doing?

 

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Beat them... BUT NOT TOO HARD! :beret:

 

Ali's basically re-interpreting the Koran and sullying Allah's word. Shouldn't someone chop his head off for that?

ok im muslim...and society has changed back then....and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

Yes, most religions have that sexist thing were the man is dominant. We can all be open minded about it because most of our religions at one point did that kind of thing.

 

ok im muslim...and society has changed back then....and isnt it in most religions that women are lower then men? im not being sexist but it is the truth....

Not in Christianity...

 

I'm curious, Sam Boyz. Chapter 5 verse 51 of the Koran says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another."

 

So Muslims have been commanded by their holy text to not befriend Jews and Christians?

 

We normally take Christians and Jews as our friends. You must have gotten some wrong info.

Um, I'm quoting straight out of Pickthall's version of the Koran. I have a copy of it in front of me as I'm typing.

 

Christianity teaches to love everyone, no matter who it is.

I follow that example and I haven't met a person that I truly hate (though I have met people that I dislike).

And in Christianity, men and women are equal, although not everyone follows that rule.

When you say "everyone" does that mean people who do not believe in Christianity?

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Christianity teaches to love everyone, no matter who it is.

I follow that example and I haven't met a person that I truly hate (though I have met people that I dislike).

And in Christianity, men and women are equal, although not everyone follows that rule.

When you say "everyone" does that mean people who do not believe in Christianity?

 

Especially people who don't believe in Christianity.

Edited by thebasswizard

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It's on now Dissentor :pirate2:

 

]I don't know about you, but I treat everybody I meet with kindness and justice. And justice doesn't have to be in a friendly way. A Muslim could say that beheading a former Muslim who converted to Christianity is just.

 

Punishment for Apostasy (called Ridda in Arabic) is a very complex issue, infact no verse in the Qur'aan commands the death of an apostate let alone any type of punishment. The punishment for apostasy is derived from the Ahadeeth (sayings of the Prophet [saw]) and these Ahadeeths are not all that reliable .... besides I wouldn't be the one talking here, have you ever read the OT? If you did you wouldn't be saying that :pirate2:

 

 

Edit: Here's something else that really scares me as I was reading through the Koran (Pickthall).

 

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

Muslims believe that men are better than women? Scourge them? So men have the right to beat women if they fear rebellion from them? :rolleyes:

 

Here is M. Asad's commentary on this verse:

 

 

Note 45 (Quran Ref: 4:34 )

It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim). According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da’ud, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn ‘Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum). When the above Qur’an-verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi’i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.(Quran Ref: 4:34 )

 

Islam holds that the Koran is a whole, unchanged text directly from Allah, correct? So what does Yusuf Ali think he's doing?

 

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Beat them... BUT NOT TOO HARD! :beret:

 

Ali's basically re-interpreting the Koran and sullying Allah's word. Shouldn't someone chop his head off for that?

 

I agree Yusuf Ali is not the best translator out there but notice he did put the word lightly in parenthesis, meaning that he showed that he has put an interpolation in the text when interpretating it into English.

 

Nice attack by the way, now let me show you what can get your head chopped off in Christianity :glasses:

 

God will kill children?!?! :box:

 

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.
The LORD says
, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth,
I will slaughter their beloved children
."
(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

 

Talk about violence!

Edited by sultan

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Christianity teaches to love everyone, no matter who it is.

I follow that example and I haven't met a person that I truly hate (though I have met people that I dislike).

And in Christianity, men and women are equal, although not everyone follows that rule.

When you say "everyone" does that mean people who do not believe in Christianity?

 

Especially people who don't believe in Christianity.

Especially, wow what an open mind you have. So what am I hearing about the Church condemning homosexuals?

 

Yes, most religions have that sexist thing were the man is dominant. We can all be open minded about it because most of our religions at one point did that kind of thing.

If it's outdated in terms of sex-based hierarchy, who is it to say that it isn't outdated in terms of the creation of the Universe? Obviously, just because a book says something does not make it correct.

Yes I agree, but why do Christians follow everything in the Bible? Not everything is correct.

Edited by Gun De Sol

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when interpretating it into English.

 

Nice attack by the way, now let me show you what can get your head chopped off in Christianity :box:

 

God will kill children?!?! :beret:

 

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.
The LORD says
, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth,
I will slaughter their beloved children
."
(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

 

Talk about violence!

 

God says that he will do that because the city of Israel turned to immorality (Numbers 25) and they needed to be punished.

God doesn't let sin go unpunished.

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The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Im sure the Bible says that God loves everybody, no matter what, thats what the guy at my old church told me, unless that was just made.

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Christianity teaches to love everyone, no matter who it is.

I follow that example and I haven't met a person that I truly hate (though I have met people that I dislike).

And in Christianity, men and women are equal, although not everyone follows that rule.

When you say "everyone" does that mean people who do not believe in Christianity?

 

Especially people who don't believe in Christianity.

Especially, wow what an open mind you have. So what am I hearing about the Church condemning homosexuals?

 

 

Well, my church doesn't condemn them, but in Christianity, we do not believe in homosexuality.

Although I do know several people that are gay/bisexual, and I treat them just like I would any other person.

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The glory of Israel will fly away like a....
I will slaughter their beloved children
."
[/b]
(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Talk about violence!

There's another passage in the Bible when God tells the Israeli warriors to pillage buildings, kill slaves, rape women, and sell children into slavery. Now if I could only remember the verses and what book it's from...

 

Yeah, I posted it here before a few times, here you go (note, all the comments in the brackes: [] are my own and not part of the text):

 

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. [Talk about peace , your idea of peace is slavery?
:queen:
] 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand,
put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.
And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

 

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance,
DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THAT BREATHES [And you accuse Islam of being harsh? Talk about hypocrisy .... ]
.
(Deuteronomy 20:10-16)

 

 

 

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Im sure the Bible says that God loves everybody, no matter what, thats what the guy at my old church told me, unless that was just made.

 

Don't get the idea that I'm attacking Christianity, just a lil payback to Dissentor, that's all :P

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Dissentor, how can you claim to know all that about Islam when you are not a Muslim?

Also, I am curious, why would a Christian read the Qur'an?

 

Maybe he knows so much about Islam because he studies it.

And a just because we are Christians does not mean that we will explode if we touch the Qur'an.

It is good to study other texts to see what other religions say, and therefore gain a better understanding of your own religion.

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Dissentor, how can you claim to know all that about Islam when you are not a Muslim?

Also, I am curious, why would a Christian read the Qur'an?

 

Maybe he knows so much about Islam because he studies it.

And a just because we are Christians does not mean that we will explode if we touch the Qur'an.

It is good to study other texts to see what other religions say, and therefore gain a better understanding of your own religion.

 

I think what he meant was since when did Dissentor attain scholarly knowledge of Islam. Yeah but I agree, studying other religions is a good thing, it increases your knowledge and gives you a better understanding of your own religion.

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