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Yuanrang

Clan Board Changes.

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i vote no 3

 

edit: other then that a good call but i haven't seen much

Edited by jack6128

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To be honest I never used the clan section :lol: but well then with the measures taken as i think it was rightly needed (viewing section for first time :closedeyes: )

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Hopefully this should stop all the spam in the Clan forums...

Great work, guys!

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Finally! Good move. :aware:

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I never realized that this was happening in the Clan Board. But seeing as I don't need a clan, I don't look there. :aware:

I'm glad this is happening, because from what I've heard you say, something needs to be done.

 

~Dr Skull

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I rarely use the Clan Forums...as I do not play Runescape anymore. But I've seen what happens in there from time to time...good choice.

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I must say I had been wondering about the boards.

 

It seems that on every forums I've been to not entirely dedicated to clans, but with a clan forum, has had to have specific rules for that forum.

 

I've seen the same ideas over and over too. :devil:

 

The main issue is that forum specific mods take away from the "moderator title," while removing the forum has its obvious issues, and the strike system here threatens to slow the forum down by a considerable degree.

 

Yes, people will get these strike temp bans. Eventually all the flaming/flame causing clans will disappear. You'll be left with around half the clans, and a much less active board. After all, 90% of feedback is negative in an optional feedback situation.

 

Hopefully the strike system will draw mature clans here though. (I do doubt it, as the most mature clans I see tend not to war or advertise themselves.)

 

There is no "right answer" to the question, but I hope this does help.

 

P.S. - How could you consider removing the clan boards? Only the people who use them should be affected, so a forum specific solution would seem appropriate.

 

Scary thought, having no clan boards. :aware:

 

The one thing I wonder is why do people who don't frequent/use the boards, and don't understand the situation (beyond "people flame a lot"), want it removed?

Wait... I think I answered my own question. :aware:

 

 

 

GL with the forum. B)

Edited by Bolthead04

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Honestly, removing the clan discussion area would greatly decrease the amount of activity from Sals.

 

In the Runescape discussion area on this forum, Clan Headquarters are within the highest activity matter. Although a large majority of people who do use the areas of the Market and screenshots, 90% of those people are within clans. My theory is you cut clans, forum activity will have a huge drop. Why? View the main post by people in this section. The clan world is afraid to stick up for their selves due to suspension or ban.

 

A large majority is filled with spam here on Sals, although a majority of it in Clan Discussion. Since you give us a strike system, why not just expand it on the whole board. As of the same nature, mods are rarely, if that, active in the section. Why? There is clearly not enough mods to direct people into a mature manner within the section. Eventually, people in the clan world will fuse, and just plain move away from the sites due to the biased opinions set by this forum. Honestly, I see over sized signatures all the time when I few other forums, do mods do anything about it? Sure, if they are in Clan Headquarters. Also, what is the max amount of mods in Clan Headquarters now? 2? Honestly, mods dedicated to clans and clans only should be appointed, it would honestly be better then having this ridiculous clan strike system, it's just bias.

 

The more and more punishments that occur, the more and more activity will slide. Clans will move to another forum to get their voice across, people will end up disappearing due to this. It's just a common fact.

 

Yuan, you were once in a clan yourself, you know how frustrating clan affairs can get, and you understand how badly it gets. You had wars, people tried to say you cheated, are you going to let them say that or voice your opinion? It does not matter if you are not in a clan now, focus back on what it was before, now, it is worst. You guys are simply saying "Hey, we want you here but don't cause trouble". That is like saying, "Hey, I'm a kid, I don't eat candy". Every kid does, so does a large majority of clan world. You wish for more activity when clans are either:

 

A. Don't wish to be with a more inexperienced community.

B. Do not wish to just be here to recruit, they look for competition.

C. There are absolutely not enough mods that are active around the clock.

 

Many things can be changed to improve the whole community, lets go back to when ED was created. There was mass flaming and spamming, I'll admit, I did my fair share of it. I did not get warned for something I should have been for, and neither did others in the act. If I remember correctly, it took the topic well over 3 days to become locked, after I had requested it multiple times.

 

It is a true fact that clans, is a main category in the clan world. Jagex has finally relised that, so has other community sites. I am not saying just throw away clans, and I am clearly not stating make us switch to another community. Option number 2 would have been best, it would have stopped the chaos of what happens, and maybe even raise the clan community back to it's feet bringing in more clans, and more competition. Right now, there is clearly not enough clans to compete with. Obviously, Forgotten Templars and 3xtermination run the clan discussion. We just need to help recruit clans here, by doing those 3 things stated above. Bringing in more clans, equal more forum activity. You must think on this issue, it is a major thing within all community sites.

 

Honestly, warn me if you think it is flame baiting, I am simply telling the truth about this issue.

Edited by -Trevor-

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Yeah, its not even about how you punish people. I see tons of people begging to be unsuspended.

 

It is the timing it takes for someone to get rid of it. When Nar spammed the forums with Rated R Material in a Homosexual way, it took about an hour to remove it. And it wasn't even a mod that removed it, it was Sals himself who removed *half* of it..

 

It is the time it takes to get rid of this. I'm not saying mods are inactive, i'm saying you don't have enough.

Edited by finished

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The main issue is that forum specific mods take away from the "moderator title," while removing the forum has its obvious issues, and the strike system here threatens to slow the forum down by a considerable degree.

If, by "take away from the moderator title", you mean that putting in forum-specific moderators are a disruption to the system, then that's not a deal. Not at all really, we already have some groups with such abilities and they handle them well.
However, the main problem is that we simply don't have people fit to be given the powers needed to moderate the Clan section when you look at some of the internal requirements we set to give people power.
Finding truly objective, utterly rule-abiding, non-biased and dependable as well as active forumers is quite difficult in a forum as the Clan board since in essence, it is a board about competition and rivalery.

Yes, people will get these strike temp bans. Eventually all the flaming/flame causing clans will disappear. You'll be left with around half the clans, and a much less active board. After all, 90% of feedback is negative in an optional feedback situation.


You can however, express negative feedback while sticking within the Forum Rules. It's not problematic at all, you can quarrel amongst eachother without breaking rules quite easily too, people just don't bother or just doesn't respect the rules enough as it is.
Let's say it like this Bolt... if you were to for instance, let's say make a topic and putting down guidelines for everyone to follow, do you think everyone would agree and respect them that easily? I doubt it, not without help to say the least and that's something which we're trying to do here too.
Unless forumers take the effort to be considerate of the rules and refrain from swearing/flaming/spamming/discriminating/flame-baiting and so forth, then this will just keep going on a viscious circle. It's the users who control the activity of the forum, having an entire clan getting themselves suspended is also their fault since they were the ones who did what was required to loose their permission-masks. :/
Inactivity? Yes, quite possibly, but atleast we're letting you have a choice on being around or not so we don't have to take a more drastic option: Removal of the forum.

Hopefully the strike system will draw mature clans here though. (I do doubt it, as the most mature clans I see tend not to war or advertise themselves.)

Hopefully, it will make people be a bit more respectful and mature too. It's not like we're telling clans to stop arguing inbetween themselves, in fact, they need the competition to create publicity to stay alive and known... but that can be done by being fair and square to eachother, not hurling out continous remarks questioning the sexuality of a rival's father and siblings. :P

P.S. - How could you consider removing the clan boards? Only the people who use them should be affected, so a forum specific solution would seem appropriate.

It was talked through, and within the removal solution, we figured that if we were to take such a step, we'd remove the Clan Events & Discussion forum but allow the Clan Central to stay open so people could find clans and other clans could start recruiting members wishing to find a home.

Scary thought, having no clan boards. :s

I'm scared of that solution too, but it isn't solely a choice the Staff will take though, it's an option the forumers push forth with their behaviour and thus forcing the Staff to take a drastic action.
You can say a lot of responsibility lie on us moderators (which it does, naturally), but an equal amount lies on the users as well since they make the forum what it is, they are the ones who go there and they are the ones who the Staff is trying to help further.
The situation as it is/was in the Clan section is helping rather few and hurting far more, to say it simple.


Honestly, removing the clan discussion area would greatly decrease the amount of activity from Sals.

I concur, if you start looking on what attracts individuals to a fansite, it would be these:
  • Various guides to help this individual.
  • A marketplace to buy/sell items for personal gain.
  • A place to get their questions about the game answered and some tips on how to do certain things.
  • A place to find a clan and be a part of a family, finding a new home with friends.


You're quite right, quite a bit of activity would vanish from the entire Forum, but one has to stop up and review on exactly how much it'll be put.
This might be a small generalization, but most people posting in the Clan section is those basically there to involve themselves in that section solely. Of course, there are a few who interest themselves on the Forum as a whole, but too many are there to support their clan, support their buisness and take care of their issues, meaning that the majority of this activity and these users aren't that noticeable on people who have no bonds to the Clan Board.
(You can just look in this topic and see how many who have stated that they don't go there, it should prove a bit. Sure, quite a few clan-interested people have posted in these last posts but that is because it's an organized way of promoting disagreements by you -Trevor-, Matt4776, El Stu and Finished. :) )
It's drastic, but it might happen and it might not be as devastating as you'd think, though it would be highly unfair on those who aren't involved in all of these rule-infractions being committed.... but do any of you guys ever stop up and think about all the people you're bothering (who have nothing to do with your problems, your issues or your conflicts) when you start flaming, insulting and start going to excessive lengths as posting pornography? I don't think you do, to be honest. :(

In the Runescape discussion area on this forum, Clan Headquarters are within the highest activity matter. Although a large majority of people who do use the areas of the Market and screenshots, 90% of those people are within clans. My theory is you cut clans, forum activity will have a huge drop. Why? View the main post by people in this section. The clan world is afraid to stick up for their selves due to suspension or ban.

90% of these people is an exaggeration, though it does not hide that many of these people are in fact a part of a clan. However, and that is a large however at that, you're generalizing "Clan" with "clans that reside here". :)
Sure, it's easy to say that most RS-active people here is in a clan when you forget that quite a few people playing RS are involved in a clan. :P
Even if these people are bound to a clan, it doesn't mean that their clan (or they themselves) are involved in a clan being active on the Clan-Board that we have here, hence it's too much of an overstatement. :P
Furthermore, if people are afraid of being banned or suspended, they ought to stop up and read the Forum Rules first of all.
Sure, you can fear being suspended or banned, but you will not in any case be given such treatment if this forumer does not break the rules.
They can come here and post if they're civilized, respectful and polite... hell, they can come here as long as they don't break any rules no matter what the mood is, in fact I encourage people to come here and say their opinions if they stick by the rules. Want to know why? Because no one is punished for no reason, though we strike down hard on those that do decide to break the rules.
If you're unsure of what warrants a warning/suspension/ban... well then, I advise yet again that these people should read the Forum Rules if unsure. ;)


A large majority is filled with spam here on Sals, although a majority of it in Clan Discussion. Since you give us a strike system, why not just expand it on the whole board. As of the same nature, mods are rarely, if that, active in the section. Why? There is clearly not enough mods to direct people into a mature manner within the section. Eventually, people in the clan world will fuse, and just plain move away from the sites due to the biased opinions set by this forum. Honestly, I see over sized signatures all the time when I few other forums, do mods do anything about it? Sure, if they are in Clan Headquarters. Also, what is the max amount of mods in Clan Headquarters now? 2? Honestly, mods dedicated to clans and clans only should be appointed, it would honestly be better then having this ridiculous clan strike system, it's just bias.


Because when comparing the infraction-level with the activity-level as well as the user-amount, you'll find that the Clan section is unique and furthermore way more explicit in the way rules are broken.
If the entire forum with all of its board ultimately make themselves so horrible that further steps need to be taken to minimize all of these infractions, then I have strong confidence in the fact that the Staff will sit down and review such options to take measure of.
However, until the rest of the boards and forums degrade to such an extent as the Clan Board did, then no action will be taken.

The amount of moderators can be stated as an issue, but you forget something, this isn't a new trend or anything which suddenly happened. Hell, to be quite frank, these problems have existed here for ages before you even joined in May. Last autumn was quite frankly an excessive pain to handle and then there was only 1 active moderator there as well, and that was me.
Trust me, I know more then anyone about how problematic the lack of moderators in that section is, do you know why? Because I had to clean and take care of it on my own until Dani gave me a helping paw.
If anyone know how it is to be few, alone and put infront of a huge pile of work to do in the Clan Board... it's me and him.
On a whole, the Staff is inactive in the Clan board. Infact, besides handling reports, no one even go there of their own free will except Dani and me.
As you say, there's clearly not enough moderators there to handle what's going on, but there's clearly not any suitable candidated by far who would fit as a moderator there.
Appointing moderators who's dedicated to clans and clans only would be well if there were any candidates, but if you're going to start suggesting on candidates, then be aware that this idea have already been brought up and discussed and we've also taken time to look into suitable candidates. That search was disssapointing, to say it the elast. :P
We will not appoint any individual to a position he or she is unfit to have and give out powers which these individuals can't handle if they are not suited to be a moderator.

The more and more punishments that occur, the more and more activity will slide. Clans will move to another forum to get their voice across, people will end up disappearing due to this. It's just a common fact.

Exactly, that's a common fact and that's one of two possible outcomes.
Either you shape up, you stop breaking rules and clean the section up yourselves or you doom the section with your own acts, your own hands and your own attitudes.
By all means, the forumers will be the ones who choose what the outcome will be, we're giving you a choice here and that's why this is important.
This is no update, no modification or a small tweaking of existing procedures, this is a direct warning and overseeing because things have escalated too far. 30+ moderators in the clan-section couldn't help to stop all of these offences, they could only deal with them faster. The amount of people getting warned/suspended/banned wouldn't change and if it did, it'd rise since every single offence is spotted.
The problem might be that we're too few moderators to enforce/spot offences, but darn it, that doesn't mean that these offences haven't happened and will keep happening until they stop. :P

Yuan, you were once in a clan yourself, you know how frustrating clan affairs can get, and you understand how badly it gets. You had wars, people tried to say you cheated, are you going to let them say that or voice your opinion? It does not matter if you are not in a clan now, focus back on what it was before, now, it is worst.

As much as I am familiar with clan-life and how it is to be in a clan, the frustration in dealing with these affairs and the desire to support and stick up for a clan I would devote myself too, never did I once disgrace it or sully my clan in any way. So what if they cheated? That's a common accusation, prove them wrong then! Don't just go "Well [insert highly inappropriate suggestion] you [insert further strain of insults]!!!11" but try stick up for a clan which doesn't make you (and your clan) look like an immature group of ranting children being too fond of swear-words. :/
You're right, I wouldn't never let anyone dare smear my clan's name and reputation by false accusations, but I in turn wouldn't smear that same name, that same reputation, by dragging it through the mud with displaying a public attitude which shames those I'm in a clan with. :)
Defend your clan, by all means. That's the point of being in a clan, but defend it in the right way.

You guys are simply saying "Hey, we want you here but don't cause trouble". That is like saying, "Hey, I'm a kid, I don't eat candy". Every kid does, so does a large majority of clan world. You wish for more activity when clans are either:

A. Don't wish to be with a more inexperienced community.
B. Do not wish to just be here to recruit, they look for competition.
C. There are absolutely not enough mods that are active around the clock.


Of course we want you here, that's a given. The section is still there, isn't it? :cute:
On the other hand though, we also don't want to see you guys and girls cause trouble, how is that different from any fansite with respect of their own rules? :)
I mean, it's not a new thing that forums have rules which are meant to be kept, right? We will see to it that our rules are followed, not just in non-clan sections but also in the clan-sections.
So, maybe Sal's Realm refuses to change according to how the Clan World act and behave as a contrast to what other fansites does. So what? We're making a stand for our rules, for our founding principles, for our cornerstones and defending them by ensuring that our rules will be followed no matter what, is that wrong? How is it different from a clan taking a stand to defend their honor, name, reputation and principles? Surely, you who are so involved in clan-affairs ought to reckongnize yourself in this situation, no? :)

Many things can be changed to improve the whole community, lets go back to when ED was created. There was mass flaming and spamming, I'll admit, I did my fair share of it. I did not get warned for something I should have been for, and neither did others in the act. If I remember correctly, it took the topic well over 3 days to become locked, after I had requested it multiple times.


This neglection from certain moderators who have no interest or concern for the Clan Section is something which I personally don't approve of, nor have I been afraid to point it out. However, a small point with this Strike System is not only a liability on rule-breakers in that section, it's also a liability on sloppy moderators meaning that this will hopefully improve due to having very strickt guidelines on how to moderate that section if they should attempt it.
Basically, now, it's "moderate in this way or don't moderate at all", meaning the speed-moderating aspect will hopefully vanish for some of the moderators, and if not, I'll personally whip them into understanding myself. That's a promise.

It is a true fact that clans, is a main category in the clan world. Jagex has finally relised that, so has other community sites. I am not saying just throw away clans, and I am clearly not stating make us switch to another community. Option number 2 would have been best, it would have stopped the chaos of what happens, and maybe even raise the clan community back to it's feet bringing in more clans, and more competition. Right now, there is clearly not enough clans to compete with. Obviously, Forgotten Templars and 3xtermination run the clan discussion. We just need to help recruit clans here, by doing those 3 things stated above. Bringing in more clans, equal more forum activity. You must think on this issue, it is a major thing within all community sites.


The problem is, activity is user-controlled though. I can assure you, for every major infraction (now listed in the Strike System) I found and which I warned for, I gave out Forum suspensions with.
Activity won't decrease by people loosing permission masks, in fact, it'll be the same amount to some extent which will keep the same activity level.
However.... please, do not think you're powerless in having the Clan Community improve. If you want to take up a serious forum discussion in helping promote the Clan board, why not step up to the Website or Forum Suggestions forum and give us some ideas to go through and debate?
If you want something to be improven and to see some changes, then by all means, come around and give basic examples and an explanation of these. The power is in your hands as well, just don't sit around and wait for something to happen while you post as normal, do something.
The only clan-related suggestion I've seen there in the later days is the suggestion of more moderators in that area (which won't happen, it has been discussed.), but nothing is stopping you all from getting together and suggesting something else.
Find a good idea you think might work, suggest it understandably with a detailed explanation and people will comment and debate it and it'll be further processed. If it's good, doable as well as benificial, then little is stopping it from being implemented.

In basic words... jump off that fence and be a part of the entire Forum. ;)

Honestly, warn me if you think it is flame baiting, I am simply telling the truth about this issue.


We appreciate constructive criticism, we don't punish it. The difference between your post and many posts in the Clan Event & Discussion board however, is that you took the time to have respect, be calm and explain your views in a good manner without starting to try and create a conflict. :P

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I think the site was down for one reason or another. (maybe just the forums)

 

Over and Forgotten. :lol:

 

----------

 

Inactivity? Yes, quite possibly, but atleast we're letting you have a choice on being around or not so we don't have to take a more drastic option: Removal of the forum.

 

But the thing is, if people choose to be removed, or cant change and are removed, (by their own choice or moderator action) Then the other clans are punished too.

 

It’s no secret that with multiple forums, clans have places to fight, and there is no need to post topic for clans not involved in the forum. Well, if 3 clans disappear from this forum, you lose all those posts, all the posts in competition involving that clan, etc.

 

It’s not that that’s a bad thing. I happen to like the system. I just wonder if enough people will be exiting the system to remove any incentive for a clan to come here. Without clans to compete with, other clans will leave. Without the clans that leave, new ones won’t be motivation to appear.

 

The forum will become superfluous.

 

As I said in my first post, I do hope this works, and By no means is the ^ stuff a certainty. But, it’s entirely possible and I would wonder if no better options were thought of/considered. If it is shown that people are getting suspensions quite often, what do you intend to do? Or, do you intend to do anything?

Edited by Bolthead04

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This is quite dumb really. Out of 3 options none are really effective, and the worst one was probably picked. It's been stated by numerous people before me but nobody has listened. When you ban one member from viewing the forum, that whole clan is going to be pissed and will either not respect the moderator that did it, or infact abuse the rules on purpose just to show that they don't care. I think that everybody just needs to chill down on the warnings given in that area of the forum - the problem isen't being fixed by giving people warns so why do it? We need to step back and let some of the lesser stuff go unpunished. Posting pornogrophy and such is of course against the rules - but some flames are quite funny and shoulden't even be given a second thought to as if they go punished or not. It's not hurting everybody, everybody does it and most of the people that use that forum expect it and dont care that it happens. So I think this update is quite unnecessary.

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