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Hutton

Homosexuality Is An Abomination...according To 1 Mp Anyways

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Jackonor: I've warned you before, the "they are GROSS, DISGUSTING, MENTALLY ILL AND WRONG to me" is offensive. If you're going to be intolerant - fine, but not by insulting people.

 

And if you want an explanation - sorry, but I think it's dead obvious why that's offensive. What if I said "you're a stupid, ignorant, narrow minded, brain washed zombie who can't think for himself because you're one of those idiot Christians. But hey, it's only my opinion - so that doesn't offend you." ? Don't tell me you wouldn't find that offensive - you'd be lying.

 

- And to reply to your way too long post:

 

First of all... please, please, please summarize your posts or at the least reply to one single post at a time. You've just about out-lengthened a Yuan post, and that is impressive.

 

On the homosexual lifestyle: Enjoy living in your little stereotypical world where everyone is a flaming queen. Fabulous. I kind of liked your wording:

 

Wake up. The new episode of fantasy world is over.

 

Second: Unless you either come with conclusive evidence or proof that you've in-depthly studied biogenetics, I suggest you stop making false statements and assumptions over homosexuality, genetics and how it comes to exist.

 

Third: If people choose to be gay - prove it. Do it, right now. Oh, you don't want to? Gee, did you really think I would have - seeing there's people like you filled with hatred towards homosexuality? :P

 

And last: I figured, since you referenced to the gay hanging thing, that you:

 

- Read about Greek history and homosexuality being praised, rather than loathed in various ancient cultures.

- Realize you're implying gay hangings were an okay - possibly even a good thing. Not to mention how idiotic your statement was.

- You're comparing an age where science was still considered witchcraft and Christianity still abused the folk for money and power. Oh wait, I forgot, I wasn't supposed to state my "opinion" about your religion, sorry.

 

Small note: Making a math equation out of a sociological debate kind of shows how much you know about the subject and how much research you've actually done. Besides, your notation is way off. :aware:

 

PS: None of this is offensive, because it's my opinion. Opinions are never offensive.

 

Yuanrang? Yes, I've seen his/her blog, but never bothered reading anything :P

 

And about the insulting..

 

Stupidity, to me, is a lack of smartness. Since I do not believe in online IQ tests, and my "smartness" has never been tested before, I do not know if I am smart or, as you say "stupid". So, since I do not know what I am yet, then I can't get offended by that. If I had known that I was smart, then you doubting my smartness with calling me stupid would be offensive for me, but not now. Not yet. :)

Ignorant, according to a dictionary, means "resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence" so it would be around the same with "stupid".

Narrow minded, according to another dictionary, means intolerant or prejudiced. Oh, I might be prejudiced. I do think that my view on how you gays spend a day is prejudiced, but it still is my opinion.

Brain washed - I don't think a brain can be washed, but still. :) No, I was not told that homosexuals are gross. I was not made to think like that. That is solely my opinion.

Zombie - Thank God, I am still alive. :)

A person who can't think of themselves/idiot Christian - Oh, why does it have to be my Religion that makes me dislike you homosexuals?

 

So no, I didn't get offended by that sentence. I did get offended a bit on the part where you keep on not actually reading my posts, where I've repeat it a few times that it's not ONLY my Religion that makes me dislike homosexuals. For them being wrong part, yes, but for the other, no.

 

There were too many posts I just had to answer (that appeared while I was absent) so that's why my post was as long. Nonetheless, yes, you might and CAN think my view on you homosexuals is stereotypical, but that's my view and I like it.

 

I never implied that homosexual people were retarded. They might be, and they might not. I think that only a mental ilness can cause that sexual disorder, but you might think otherwise, and you have the whole right to do so, and of course, so do I. :)

 

About people choosing to be gay, I see it as the only logical answer. Is what you're saying that people become gay because they are attracted to a person from the same sex as them, and after they "finish" with them, they go normal again, or what? Since I see no other explanation for why you think gays don't choose to be gay, could please help me and answer me?

 

And about the last thing, sorry if I were wrong. I just gave it as an example. I do know that homosexual was a strongly forbidden thing once, and that gay people might have been hung (not in the 10th century, or did I state 15, it was just an example), but nothing sure. I haven't read about Greek history, nor do I want to, I just gave it as an example since Kwinten's post made be rage. If homosexuality was forbidden before, but it's not now, does this mean that soon enough, murdering will be allowed?

 

And, last, I just wanted to show you a simple scheme of my opinion. They have both male and female properties, so they can't really be called male or female, right?

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Urgh!

 

The one thing i'm trying to get through is that nobody can start or stop being attracted to someone.

 

We all now full well that you are straight, and you are attracted to the girls. I know full well i am attracted to girls as well as boys. Can i control that? No! What happens in my head i cannot change. I can't realise i am attracted to a girl and suddenly make myself stop. No. I can't. As must as i wish i could so that i could break out of it all.

 

You don't understand, it isn't a choice. It isnt a choice to choose who you are attracted to, yes, it is a choice to how you act on it. But to be bisexual or homosexual is NOT A CHOICE. Being bi/gay doesnt mean you have sex with the same sex, it just means you are attracted to them.

 

 

 

And can i point out that you have said that male on male is disgusting, what about female on female? It seems that a lot of straight men don't seem to mind, in fact, they enjoy it.

 

Stop pointing your finger at toungy and hutton. I'M BISEXUAL. Why has nobody stated anything about two females? NO BODY HAS.

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Urgh!

 

The one thing i'm trying to get through is that nobody can start or stop being attracted to someone.

 

We all now full well that you are straight, and you are attracted to the girls. I know full well i am attracted to girls as well as boys. Can i control that? No! What happens in my head i cannot change. I can't realise i am attracted to a girl and suddenly make myself stop. No. I can't. As must as i wish i could so that i could break out of it all.

 

You don't understand, it isn't a choice. It isnt a choice to choose who you are attracted to, yes, it is a choice to how you act on it. But to be bisexual or homosexual is NOT A CHOICE. Being bi/gay doesnt mean you have sex with the same sex, it just means you are attracted to them.

 

 

 

And can i point out that you have said that male on male is disgusting, what about female on female? It seems that a lot of straight men don't seem to mind, in fact, they enjoy it.

 

Stop pointing your finger at toungy and hutton. I'M BISEXUAL. Why has nobody stated anything about two females? NO BODY HAS.

 

Got a point. He seems only to have something against men? Then again, most men don't find bisexual females/lesbians digusting due to pornographical reasons (I won't go into it here)

 

You're saying you're offended by me insulting you gays, and then you say that Religion should be banned. Religion being banned is as bad for us Religious people as it is for you gays to have all homosexuals hung. Also, it's not about my Religion, I still do think that you are wrong, disgusting and gross, and my Religion just supports me. It's 90% my opinion, and 10% Religion, that I hate gay people.

 

Hmm...so banning something is as bad as outright murder? I don't know where you learnt your rights and wrongs but you missed some key points. Also...some of the other stuff you've said..I'm spoke to HOMOPHOBES about it, and you disgust them. So i'm not sure what that says, do you?

 

~Hutton~

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Yuanrang? Yes, I've seen his/her blog, but never bothered reading anything :P

Well, your post was enormous.

 

And about the insulting..

 

Stupidity, to me, is a lack of smartness. Since I do not believe in online IQ tests, and my "smartness" has never been tested before, I do not know if I am smart or, as you say "stupid". So, since I do not know what I am yet, then I can't get offended by that. If I had known that I was smart, then you doubting my smartness with calling me stupid would be offensive for me, but not now. Not yet. :)

Ignorant, according to a dictionary, means "resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence" so it would be around the same with "stupid".

Narrow minded, according to another dictionary, means intolerant or prejudiced. Oh, I might be prejudiced. I do think that my view on how you gays spend a day is prejudiced, but it still is my opinion.

Brain washed - I don't think a brain can be washed, but still. :) No, I was not told that homosexuals are gross. I was not made to think like that. That is solely my opinion.

Zombie - Thank God, I am still alive. :)

A person who can't think of themselves/idiot Christian - Oh, why does it have to be my Religion that makes me dislike you homosexuals?

 

So no, I didn't get offended by that sentence. I did get offended a bit on the part where you keep on not actually reading my posts, where I've repeat it a few times that it's not ONLY my Religion that makes me dislike homosexuals. For them being wrong part, yes, but for the other, no.

Hello mr. hypocrite: that's not what I wrote.

 

There were too many posts I just had to answer (that appeared while I was absent) so that's why my post was as long. Nonetheless, yes, you might and CAN think my view on you homosexuals is stereotypical, but that's my view and I like it.

If you're not here to be open to a change of mind - and just here to smack your opinion onto others, you need to grasp the basic concept of discussions: it's a two-way road.

 

I never implied that homosexual people were retarded. They might be, and they might not. I think that only a mental ilness can cause that sexual disorder, but you might think otherwise, and you have the whole right to do so, and of course, so do I. :)

Yes, you did - you said you thought we had a disgusting mental illness. There is no arguing over something that is a fact. Homosexuality is not a mental illness - that's a fact.

 

About people choosing to be gay, I see it as the only logical answer. Is what you're saying that people become gay because they are attracted to a person from the same sex as them, and after they "finish" with them, they go normal again, or what? Since I see no other explanation for why you think gays don't choose to be gay, could please help me and answer me?

Well let's look at this logically, again.

 

Why would anyone want to be gay? There's only a two reasons I can think of:

 

A) They want attention. If a person claims to be homosexual just for the attention - I wholeheartedly loathe that person.

B) They're attracted to males. - Oh wait, that's not a choice. :aware:

 

And about the last thing, sorry if I were wrong. I just gave it as an example. I do know that homosexual was a strongly forbidden thing once, and that gay people might have been hung (not in the 10th century, or did I state 15, it was just an example), but nothing sure. I haven't read about Greek history, nor do I want to, I just gave it as an example since Kwinten's post made be rage. If homosexuality was forbidden before, but it's not now, does this mean that soon enough, murdering will be allowed?

Murder is an act of hatred. Sexuality is a result of love. - see the difference?

 

And, last, I just wanted to show you a simple scheme of my opinion. They have both male and female properties, so they can't really be called male or female, right?

I have a penis and I lack breasts/a vagina - therefore I am male.

 

I don't see how that's hard so understand. :P

Edited by Toungy

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And, last, I just wanted to show you a simple scheme of my opinion. They have both male and female properties, so they can't really be called male or female, right?

 

Let me explain something.

 

Sex: The biological system of classification for a person, based solely on genitalia. Sex is often confused with gender. Currently only two sexes exist by medical definition—these are male (penis) and female (vagina).

 

Gender: Largely a social construct, gender is used to classify people. The most common, and most widely used, genders are male and female, but more include bigender, transgender, gender neutral, gender queer, and others

 

Transgender: A person whose innate sense of gender does not match their biological sex. This person may or may not choose to transition

 

 

Not all homosexual/Bisexual people are transgender. Some of them are, some are definitely not at all. I think i've seen more manley homosexuals than "girly" ones.

 

You are confusing homosexuals to transgenders. and you are confusing sex and genders too.

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Urgh!

 

The one thing i'm trying to get through is that nobody can start or stop being attracted to someone.

 

We all now full well that you are straight, and you are attracted to the girls. I know full well i am attracted to girls as well as boys. Can i control that? No! What happens in my head i cannot change. I can't realise i am attracted to a girl and suddenly make myself stop. No. I can't. As must as i wish i could so that i could break out of it all.

 

You don't understand, it isn't a choice. It isnt a choice to choose who you are attracted to, yes, it is a choice to how you act on it. But to be bisexual or homosexual is NOT A CHOICE. Being bi/gay doesnt mean you have sex with the same sex, it just means you are attracted to them.

 

 

 

And can i point out that you have said that male on male is disgusting, what about female on female? It seems that a lot of straight men don't seem to mind, in fact, they enjoy it.

 

Stop pointing your finger at toungy and hutton. I'M BISEXUAL. Why has nobody stated anything about two females? NO BODY HAS.

 

Yes, we haven't brought that up. It's hard to explain why, but I'm far more disgusted by male than female homosexuals. Especially on a forum with strict rules like this. :aware: I bet you understand me, for as Hutton said, pornographic reasons. :)

 

And also, you're right about the choice thing. Even though you might be attracted to people from the same sex, you get the chance to CHOOSE whether you want to become bi/gay or not. But I think I can stop being attracted to someone, not on my own will, but due to the circumstances.

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I bet you understand me, for as Hutton said, pornographic reasons. :)

You realize how awfully, awfully, awfully hypocritical that is to say? Not to mention dumb - seeing lesbians aren't going to have sex with you anyway with consent. And the homophobic behavior you've shown is not a turn-on either for bisexuals, I imagine.

 

Besides, m/m porn > lesbian porn. :aware:

 

And also, you're right about the choice thing. Even though you might be attracted to people from the same sex, you get the chance to CHOOSE whether you want to become bi/gay or not. But I think I can stop being attracted to someone, not on my own will, but due to the circumstances.

I didn't volunteer to be hated like this, y'know. But thanks for the heads up; it's my own decision.

Edited by Toungy

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God, I can't believe I'm about to do this.

That's crossdressing- not homosexuality.

The thing is called gay parade in every newspaper/tv channel, there are male gay couples that wear these things.

Yes, because all gay people participate in 'gay pride parades' and fully support them. /sarcasm. Wake up, a lot of homosexuals hate the bad attention those parades bring.

Any sane minded gay would be asking "Look, we're gay, don't treat us differently"

The homosexuals in my country are doing the exact opposite...

You still haven't said what country this is, and I HIGHLY doubt this is true.

You don't have to go to gay parades

It quite hard to walk past if they take up the whole main street.

Ever been to the Macy's Day Parade in NYC, it's impossible to walk a block in under 15 minutes.

 

Well... based on the previous there are 2 typs of homosexuals:

 

1. The big attention hunters, want to be treated specially - i hate those, and from the media/life i've had an impression that 90% of homosexuals belong to this group... seems im wrong then..

You never realized that the media over exaggerates everything tenfold for publicity :)

2. The normal ones who want to be treated normally - If i hurt any of these people's feelings, then I'm sorry, they seem ok.

 

 

Define a homosexual 'lifestyle'?

 

Wake up, put make up on, talk 2 hours on the phone to your boyfriend, help your best female friend with her wedding, go to the sexy shop to buy a new dildo and visit your boyfriend. One homosexual's day in my eyes.

Gosh I wish I had enough money to buy a new dildo every day... :) -lilshu

Fine, then no buying new dildo. :P

 

Which gives you what right to call all gay people retards...?

 

No, but it's an opinion. No blads, no Toungys, no lilshus and no Kwintens will make me change my opinion. No warns, suspensions and bans will change my opinion. Whatever you do to me, I will stand right to my point, that homosexuality is a wrong, disgusting and mentally ill thing. That's what I think, and you're not going to change that. So give up. I'm not telling you to change your opinion, but I am expressing my opinion. :)

That you're a self-righteous deus who thinks their opinion matters more then anyone elses? If you don't intend to at least consider other people's opinions in a debate then that simply makes you ignorant.

 

Explain please how being gay is inbetween.

 

Let's say positive is male, negative is female, zero is inbetween.

 

They were born as males, look like males (some don't) = +1

They act like females and have sex with males = -1

+1 -1 = 0

You failed with this. Homosexuality, just as heterosexuality is a result of TWO factors, Heredity and Environment, this is what affects a persons actions, lifestyle and everything about them. This genetical formula you're trying to use only applies to birth sex.

 

Well, I don't think you should disagree with a choice people make if it doesn't harm anybody.

Where is homosexuality a choice? O_o. Then you would be able to choose to be gay or straight at will, are you able to do this?

 

Since when do you have the right to "think" about my opinion? It's my opinion, you can't change it. It might not harm anybody, but I still dislike and disagree with it, and with that I'm not trying to change their sexual orientation, since it's THEIR sexual orientation, and they can do whatever they want wit it.

It's a debate, your allowed to think about people's opinions and retaliate to what they said, that's the purpose of a debate.

1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.

2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

3. deliberation; consideration.

9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.

10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.

11. to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.

12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter

 

Homosexuals differ so little from us. Usually, they're the kinder sort of people. I'm not generalizing, but that's what I notice.

 

Males are usually rougher than females. Males that act like and want to be females aren't as rough as real males, thus, they are kinder.

 

I didn't choose to be homosexual.

 

Then why are you homosexual? Were you made to be?

You should read what I said above about heredity and environment, it isn't done by choice, it is a result genetics AND the environment they were raised in. There is also theories about chemical imbalances similar to how in the primitive version of psychology they believed there were four humors in a person's body that controlled how they act. Blood, Yellow Bile, Black Bile, and Phlegm, but we now know that's not true.

 

Anyways, my belief is, to be homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual or transexual or whatever is your own right. It's up to you.

Good, you still have yet to say that you could become gay at will hence your theory lacks any evidence.

Oh, I sure do agree with that, and I'm not blocking those people from being any of the "..sexuals" above. I just don't agree with them, not make them not be.

 

Also...Jacknor, whether or not you've realised it, your belief has been influenced by your religion. This is one of the many reasons I hate religion, and if anything, I thank you for the drama you've caused, because all you have done is provided a new reason why religion should be banned.

 

You're saying you're offended by me insulting you gays, and then you say that Religion should be banned. Religion being banned is as bad for us Religious people as it is for you gays to have all homosexuals hung. Also, it's not about my Religion, I still do think that you are wrong, disgusting and gross, and my Religion just supports me. It's 90% my opinion, and 10% Religion, that I hate gay people.

Then you don't follow your religion. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Yet you have just said you hate sinners which makes you one according to your religion.

 

This is yet another reason why I hate religion. If there were no religion, there wouldn't be nearly as many Homosexuality haters... The Greeks embraced it... Before Christianity came around...

 

But there still would be homosexuality haters. Live with it.

 

Also, did you know that Greece had the most homosexual citizens by percentage? I've read somewhere..

Please see my second next post, for my response to this.

 

Can you please explain to us WHY you think it's an illness

 

Since when do we have to explain why do we support a certain belief or opinion? I believe in Christianity because it all makes sense, and I'm sure there is something Holy up there, and I hate gay people because, as I have said before, they are GROSS, DISGUSTING, MENTALLY ILL AND WRONG to me. Not necessarily they are, but they are to me.

Yes, even though your faith has lied, deceited the people and is based mostly around the Egyptian Sun God Horus, look up the similarities since many religions seem to be based upon it that people ignore. Christian holidays were moved around to cover up pagan holidays since they simply desired to force their religion down people's throats which is also a sin.

 

One, because this is the 21st century

 

So what? If homosexuals were hung in the 10th century, are we going to support and not arrest killers and pedophiles in the 25th century? Your post implies nothing but that.

Then we should be stoning people who have sex before marriage to death? That's what that logic implies.

 

and two, because there are these people that can accept others the way they are, and realise that nobody is the same, but do have the same rights.

Thank you.

Wake up. The new episode of fantasy world is over. Even though everyone might deserve the same rights, it's far from everyone having the same rights. Sorry, that's life.

And that's why people fight for equal rights, is it really that hard to comprehend that logic? :aware:

Many many MANY people think it is a choice to be gay or bisexual. This is totally not true. How can you choose to be attracted to someone? If you were straight, you see someone of the opposite sex, and sometimes, you might be attracted to them. You don't choose to. Your mind does that for you. You cannot stop the attraction just by the snap of your fingers.

So how do you think that the LGBT can choose to be who we are? Some people don't even ACCEPT it but know they are.

 

So why are Toungy and Hutton and all other gays attracted to males, and I'm not? If homosexuality occured just because you were attracted of someone at the time, then it wouldn't be a life decision and a sexual orientation. If you choose to be gay, you will like males even after you break up with that attractive male that "chose" your sexual orientation instead of you.

It isn't a decision, it is what they are stuck with. Did you choose to be straight? No, the same applies to the vice versa even though you can't seem to comprehend that logic.

 

It is not a choice, just the way we are. You cannot choose your race, your eye colour, when you were born. Neither can you choose your sexuality.

 

You're saying you can't choose where to put your penis? We're not talking about raping here.

Talking about sexual intercourse, is different then orientation. Just because they are attracted to the same sex does not mean they have had sex, or are you under the impression that they do that anyway. Have you never heard of a meaningful relationship? You really need to stop living in your own fantasy world and realize how the world actually works.

If homosexuality was an illness, it would be proven by scientists. It isn't an illness, its not proven. You may still think it is wrong, and it still hurts, but fine, it's better than stating a fictional fact.

 

Finally someone who understands that I THINK and not IMPLY that they are mentally ill.

 

How you can think you have any say in everyone and anyone's intimate life?

 

When did I, or anyone against homosexuality in that topic, told any gay people that they shouldn't be gay? I'm just stating my opinion, not telling them what to do.

Choose your words carefully, the way you worded it and keep arguing against it is implying that you are saying it is wrong and that they will go to hell.

... how can you disagree with a sexuality?

 

Don't know how, but I am doing it, so I guess I can. :P

 

stop treating them like they are a difference, alien, race.

 

Oh, please, show me how are you going to stop me from treating them like that?

It doesn't have to be you, if it's someone else that's willing to accept people then that brings people closer to a goal many people have - PEACE, yes I'm a hippie like that.

Again, why do you disagree?

 

In what way am I obliged to answer you? Are you even allowed to ask me why do I have that opinion?

Yes, since you refuse to state what made you choose that opinion.

It needs to be cured, and letting homosexuals adopt babies and teach them their ways of life sure as hell isn't doing it.

You realize a child brought up by gay parents isn't anymore likely to be gay then if they were raised by straight parents.

It's now 2-50, instead of 1-50. Yay! :/

 

And John Adamns, i don't have anything against black people... The only difference from white people is their skin, not their thinking/ways of life. why did you even bring that up... totally random thing

 

Even though I doubt I have anything against black people, were the first people on Earth black or white? Was the first person on Earth male or female? That is the only explanation I could find for them being treated badly in the past. :P

Simple - People wish to control people, and the earliest people if we're going by recorded past would be tannish colored being Mesopotamia and Egypt.

That's crossdressing- not homosexuality.

 

What normal heterosexual would dress like a homosexual/female?

You'd be surprised? Many guys seem to find girls pants that are larger sized more comfortable (there's more room in the crotch area), and many girls like wearing guys clothing.

Any worse than straight nightclubs? Nah.

 

You're saying that because you are gay yourself and like gay nightclubs. We straight people don't.

Excuse mau? "We straight people don't." Don't try to make yourself sound like a representative for anyone besides yourself, that's a good way to make enemies. You do not represent straight people, you do not share my opinion or someone else's. And personally I don't care if there is gay nightclubs or parades, I have more of a life then to worry what a group of people are doing at a parade I'm not at and have no interest in.

A straight rapper singing about giving his woman a sexual eruption- that's just as sick.

 

Actually, I don't find it as sick as males singing about sucking other males' penises. The single act of giving a woman a sexual eruption is not a gross thing to me at all, while I really do get disgusted with males giving blow jobs.

You really shouldn't come to my college since almost all of the clubs and activities are based on accepting people for who they are. Does it affect you? No. Are you being made to listen to that music? No. Then stop caring about it and listen to what you, yourself enjoy. Wow, that's really hard to do.

 

Any sane minded gay would be asking "Look, we're gay, don't treat us differently"

 

Are there any of those?

You've talked to a number of them.

it's infinitely more absurd to HATE a whole group of people just because SOME of them act silly.

Thank you.

And you can't stop me from hating them, can you? Nor can you comment on my opinion about them.

Want to bet? I think your opinion is your a chauvinistic deus who isn't willing to listen to anyone else's opinion, and this isn't flaming because it's my opinion to prove you wrong. (If this is a flame, will one of the mods pm me since I'm not viewing it that way)

Would you be less offended by a straight singer singing about cunnilingus? :)

 

Yes, of course. I think that cunnilingus is a completely normal thing, and I wouldn't mind doing it. But male blow jobs, that's sick.

IN YOUR OPINION.

How about to get us the rights we deserve (like same-sex marriage)

 

How do you know you actually do deserve those rights? Marriage is something that happens between two (or more in different cultures) people from the opposite sex (one male and more females in those cultures), and not something to be done between two people from the same sex. And gay adopting? That's just sick, and to me is worse than killing those poor babies. :P It is normal to be married with a person from the opposite sex, and it isn't normal to be married with a person from the same sex. Thus, you are asking for special rights, which by far you do not deserve imo.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Since all people are created equally who are you to decide that they should have less rights, then anyone else, because to you it is not normal? If everyone has the right to pursue happiness why do you interfere with your religion?

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Urgh!

 

The one thing i'm trying to get through is that nobody can start or stop being attracted to someone.

 

We all now full well that you are straight, and you are attracted to the girls. I know full well i am attracted to girls as well as boys. Can i control that? No! What happens in my head i cannot change. I can't realise i am attracted to a girl and suddenly make myself stop. No. I can't. As must as i wish i could so that i could break out of it all.

 

You don't understand, it isn't a choice. It isnt a choice to choose who you are attracted to, yes, it is a choice to how you act on it. But to be bisexual or homosexual is NOT A CHOICE. Being bi/gay doesnt mean you have sex with the same sex, it just means you are attracted to them.

 

 

 

And can i point out that you have said that male on male is disgusting, what about female on female? It seems that a lot of straight men don't seem to mind, in fact, they enjoy it.

 

Stop pointing your finger at toungy and hutton. I'M BISEXUAL. Why has nobody stated anything about two females? NO BODY HAS.

 

Yes, we haven't brought that up. It's hard to explain why, but I'm far more disgusted by male than female homosexuals. Especially on a forum with strict rules like this. :aware: I bet you understand me, for as Hutton said, pornographic reasons. :)

 

And also, you're right about the choice thing. Even though you might be attracted to people from the same sex, you get the chance to CHOOSE whether you want to become bi/gay or not. But I think I can stop being attracted to someone, not on my own will, but due to the circumstances.

 

No i did not mean that. You cannot choose whether you are bi/gay. You can choose whether you want to tell people or not, but you cannot choose your sexuality. I didnt. If i got to choice, i would choose to be straight. Why would i choose to be bisexual if i knew that everybody is going to threaten to hang me and call it a mental illness?

 

Choosing to be bi/gay is like choosing your race. Thats right, you can't.

 

And you cannot make yourself choose to be attracted to someone.I like a girl, i don't want to, if i could stop, i would of by now.

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Urgh!

 

The one thing i'm trying to get through is that nobody can start or stop being attracted to someone.

 

We all now full well that you are straight, and you are attracted to the girls. I know full well i am attracted to girls as well as boys. Can i control that? No! What happens in my head i cannot change. I can't realise i am attracted to a girl and suddenly make myself stop. No. I can't. As must as i wish i could so that i could break out of it all.

 

You don't understand, it isn't a choice. It isnt a choice to choose who you are attracted to, yes, it is a choice to how you act on it. But to be bisexual or homosexual is NOT A CHOICE. Being bi/gay doesnt mean you have sex with the same sex, it just means you are attracted to them.

 

 

 

And can i point out that you have said that male on male is disgusting, what about female on female? It seems that a lot of straight men don't seem to mind, in fact, they enjoy it.

 

Stop pointing your finger at toungy and hutton. I'M BISEXUAL. Why has nobody stated anything about two females? NO BODY HAS.

 

Yes, we haven't brought that up. It's hard to explain why, but I'm far more disgusted by male than female homosexuals. Especially on a forum with strict rules like this. :aware: I bet you understand me, for as Hutton said, pornographic reasons. :)

 

And also, you're right about the choice thing. Even though you might be attracted to people from the same sex, you get the chance to CHOOSE whether you want to become bi/gay or not. But I think I can stop being attracted to someone, not on my own will, but due to the circumstances.

 

I only have one thing to say. You're sick. I can't stand to even think of you any more. And liking lesbians because of porn? Make up your mind! Do you hate homosexuals or not. You can't be 1 way for 1 sex and 1 way for another!

 

~Hutton~

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If people want to wear "womens clothing", and just happen to be gay, so what?

 

Sure, they can do it with they are alone, but why are we, the normal people, obliged to see those gross stuff?

It is only gross to you because you believe it is gross. Once again stop trying to be a representative for all straight people. You should learn some of us are actually willing to accept people for who they are, we don't see the need for people to veil who they are from the norms of society the same way you do.

If you don't like them just ignor them is a good way to handle it.

 

Please help me how to ignore people who walk on the same street as me, dressed like some words I would rather not mention?

Look past your ignorance that they are so much more different then you.

but if a gay couple wants to hold hands and kiss, of course they should.

 

No matter if that makes normal people sick?

Once again stop trying to be a representative. Why should they repress who they are because of societies norms? It is a form of affection and should be allowed. And once again stop assuming it makes people sick, because frankly it's arrogant people like you that make me sick.

And they can't choose what sex they're attracted to.

 

I can. There are 4x more boys than girls in my class, yet I am only attracted to girls.

Which means nothing. You can't conciously choose which sex you are attracted to.

Ignoring anything is not a good way of handling it. Growing to accept it is a better route.

 

What if I don't want to accept them?

Then that just proves that your arrogant.

 

Jackonor: I've warned you before, the "they are GROSS, DISGUSTING, MENTALLY ILL AND WRONG to me" is offensive. If you're going to be intolerant - fine, but not by insulting people.

 

And if you want an explanation - sorry, but I think it's dead obvious why that's offensive. What if I said "you're a stupid, ignorant, narrow minded, brain washed zombie who can't think for himself because you're one of those idiot Christians. But hey, it's only my opinion - so that doesn't offend you." ? Don't tell me you wouldn't find that offensive - you'd be lying.

 

- And to reply to your way too long post:

 

First of all... please, please, please summarize your posts or at the least reply to one single post at a time. You've just about out-lengthened a Yuan post, and that is impressive.

 

On the homosexual lifestyle: Enjoy living in your little stereotypical world where everyone is a flaming queen. Fabulous. I kind of liked your wording:

 

Wake up. The new episode of fantasy world is over.

 

Second: Unless you either come with conclusive evidence or proof that you've in-depthly studied biogenetics, I suggest you stop making false statements and assumptions over homosexuality, genetics and how it comes to exist.

 

Third: If people choose to be gay - prove it. Do it, right now. Oh, you don't want to? Gee, did you really think I would have - seeing there's people like you filled with hatred towards homosexuality? :P

 

And last: I figured, since you referenced to the gay hanging thing, that you:

 

- Read about Greek history and homosexuality being praised, rather than loathed in various ancient cultures.

- Realize you're implying gay hangings were an okay - possibly even a good thing. Not to mention how idiotic your statement was.

- You're comparing an age where science was still considered witchcraft and Christianity still abused the folk for money and power. Oh wait, I forgot, I wasn't supposed to state my "opinion" about your religion, sorry.

 

Small note: Making a math equation out of a sociological debate kind of shows how much you know about the subject and how much research you've actually done. Besides, your notation is way off. :aware:

 

PS: None of this is offensive, because it's my opinion. Opinions are never offensive.

 

Yuanrang? Yes, I've seen his/her blog, but never bothered reading anything :P

 

And about the insulting..

 

Stupidity, to me, is a lack of smartness.

Which makes you a hypocrite. Because by that logic your 'stupid' since it would be a lack of intelligence since you're using words that don't exist.

Since I do not believe in online IQ tests, and my "smartness" has never been tested before, I do not know if I am smart or, as you say "stupid". So, since I do not know what I am yet, then I can't get offended by that. If I had known that I was smart, then you doubting my smartness with calling me stupid would be offensive for me, but not now. Not yet. :)

Yep, see last comment.

Ignorant, according to a dictionary, means "resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence" so it would be around the same with "stupid".

Narrow minded, according to another dictionary, means intolerant or prejudiced. Oh, I might be prejudiced. I do think that my view on how you gays spend a day is prejudiced, but it still is my opinion.

Brain washed - I don't think a brain can be washed, but still. :) No, I was not told that homosexuals are gross. I was not made to think like that. That is solely my opinion.

Zombie - Thank God, I am still alive. :)

A person who can't think of themselves/idiot Christian - Oh, why does it have to be my Religion that makes me dislike you homosexuals?

 

So no, I didn't get offended by that sentence. I did get offended a bit on the part where you keep on not actually reading my posts, where I've repeat it a few times that it's not ONLY my Religion that makes me dislike homosexuals. For them being wrong part, yes, but for the other, no.

 

There were too many posts I just had to answer (that appeared while I was absent) so that's why my post was as long. Nonetheless, yes, you might and CAN think my view on you homosexuals is stereotypical, but that's my view and I like it.

 

I never implied that homosexual people were retarded. They might be, and they might not. I think that only a mental ilness can cause that sexual disorder, but you might think otherwise, and you have the whole right to do so, and of course, so do I. :)

With the small exception that you're wrong otherwise it would be in medical journals which I suggest you start reading some of.

 

About people choosing to be gay, I see it as the only logical answer.

Once again did you choose to be straight?

Is what you're saying that people become gay because they are attracted to a person from the same sex as them, and after they "finish" with them, they go normal again, or what? Since I see no other explanation for why you think gays don't choose to be gay, could please help me and answer me?

 

And about the last thing, sorry if I were wrong. I just gave it as an example. I do know that homosexual was a strongly forbidden thing once, and that gay people might have been hung (not in the 10th century, or did I state 15, it was just an example), but nothing sure. I haven't read about Greek history, nor do I want to, I just gave it as an example since Kwinten's post made be rage. If homosexuality was forbidden before, but it's not now, does this mean that soon enough, murdering will be allowed?

It was actually the Romans that embraced homosexuality more then any other culture.

 

And, last, I just wanted to show you a simple scheme of my opinion. They have both male and female properties, so they can't really be called male or female, right?

Being called male or female solely relies on what a person's genitalia is.

 

I'm seriously getting sick of posting this.

 

 

 

Welcome, all! Loki, here, to try to teach everyone a thing or two about a little religion I ascribe to. People think they know about it, and yet they fail to know even the most basic knowledge from this religions holy texts. I am, of course, talking about Christianity. It’s a religion that, in America, 83% of people claimed in 2004. Yet, out of that 83%, maybe only 40% can name the 10 Commandments. Shameful, isn’t it? Therefore, I’m going to try to give a little view of what Christianity at it’s most naked is. I won’t tell you that your denomination is wrong and mine is right. Rather, I will refer to the Bible, not denominational beliefs. Also, I will tend to only include books from the standard protestant Bible, NIV edition. If you have a problem with that, www.biblegateway.com has all the Bibles you could never read. It is to now be noted that this thread will be long. We’re going to cover a lot of subjects, including definitions of some terms, certain misconceptions popularly permeated through the Christian world, as well as defend Catholicism from those that would claim it is not Christianity. The posts will go as follows.

 

Post 1: Introduction

Post 2: Definitions

Post 3: Misconceptions About Homosexuality

Post 4: Big Misconceptions: About Hell and Abortion

Post 5: Misconceptions About the Literal Infallibility of the Modern Bible

Post 6: Misconceptions About Catholicism

Post 7: Other Misconceptions

Post 8: Other Threads on Christianity

 

First off, we need to define a few terms. These are terms that will help guide the path of this thread, as well as understand the differences between things. Terms shall be added as confusions arise.

 

Christianity – Christianity is, typically, a belief in the teachings of Jesus the Christ. It is a belief that He is the Son of God and the Son of Man, Alpha and Omega, and the Messiah prophesied in the Holy Texts of the prophets. Belief in the resurrection of Christ, endowment of the Holy Spirit, and the Bible are also normally beliefs included in Christianity.

 

Gnosticism – Gnosticism is a form of Christianity that, to be honest, I don’t have much of a clue about. However, it is to be noted that Gnostic Christianity is distinctly different from Established Christianity, that of the Church founded by the Apostle Paul. I merely want it to be known that we will not be discussing Gnosticism in this thread. For more on Gnosticism, look for the threads mentioned in the last post.

 

Popular Christianity – We’ll note now that, yes, this one is a tad different from Christianity. Unfortunately, it’s also what nearly everyone claims or thinks is Christianity, and it’s been giving Christians a bad name for a while. Another name for this might be embellished Christianity. Basically, it is a faith in the Church or the Clergy, a faith that whatever they say on matters pertaining to the Bible and the Spirit. People that ascribe to this version of Christianity almost never have actually read the Bible, are unable to list the Ten Commandments, and are laden with other woes and ignorance that is found easily in the Scripture. It’s this type of Christianity that spawns so many problems and misconceptions, especially thanks to the Catholic Church and the Papacy being able to say whatever they wanted about the Bible and be infallible. Misconceptions that sprout from this PC include Hell, homosexuality is a sin, the Deadly Sins, etcetera. Those misconceptions spawned from this form of Christianity are what we’ll be covering.

 

Sin – Here’s a word some people use a tad liberally. A sin is simply a transgression against God and His Laws. Cursing is not necessarily sinful, but cursing God is. Lashing out in anger is ALSO not sinful. Jesus Christ Himself did it on at least two occasions. Once in the Temple, and once on a road, striking a fig tree with withering plague. Also, just because it is sinful does not mean it is horrendously wrong. Imagining someone in a sexually pleasing to you manner is lust, a sin. However, it is not a “great evil”. There is no sin that cannot be forgiven, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And that’s a Biblical fact.

 

EDITED 2/26/07

 

I've noticed that people are having troubles with prayer vs. worship and the term homosexuality. This last is a problem as it seems to be this thread's main attraction. Therefore, we shall define them.

 

Prayer – Prayer is merely talking to someone of a higher realm. A prayer can be as simple as "Dear God, please help!", or as used as the Pater Noster (Our Father). Prayer, it is to be noted, does not mean worship. They are seperate terms. Miriam-Webster tells us that to pray is merely to entreat, implore, or address God or a god.

 

Worship – Worship, as I said, is different from prayer. Miriam-Webster says it well with "reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence". Prayer is not an act of expressing reverence. It is an act of talking to someone of a higher power.

 

Homosexuality – Homosexuality is the natural sexuality that makes a person or animal find an attraction towards those of the same gender as they. Homosexuality is not the state of having sex with members of the same sex. Also, homosexual has been commonly used to refer to the male homosexuals, though it applies to males and females.

 

These next posts will deal with common MAJOR misconceptions Christians have.

[align=center]Misconceptions on Homosexuality – It Is NOT A Sin[/align]

 

This post is dedicated to proving the popular passages as not anti-homosexual. For now, I only have the most common arguments, but more may appear. Here they are:

 

"Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." - Insinuating Adam and Eve as the only humans on the Earth in the beginning, and all humans are children of Adam and Eve.

 

"Leviticus says:" - Insinuating that all of Leviticus is still to be used by Christians.

 

"God burnt down Sodom for homosexuality!" - Insinuating that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexual sex.

 

"The New Testament says:" - Insinuating that the New Testament specifically says that homosexuality is a sin.

 

"Gays marrying is against God!" - Insinuating that marriage is a Christian rite and that homosexuality is a sin.

 

These arguments are all quite wrong. Let me show you why.

 

 

 

Topic 1, Adam and Eve: The Only Humans?

 

Note: The NIV translation does, in fact, use some tenses of words that make my theory somewhat difficult to follow chronologically. Other translations support my theory more fluidly. However, said translation(s) are not on Biblegateway, so let's just move on, shall we? (For those that wish to find it, look up the verse in a New Century Version)

 

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

 

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

 

Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

 

As Adam was made before vegetation was on the Earth, he was made during the third day: After the water, but before the veggies. However:

 

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

 

So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

 

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

 

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

 

More humans were created on the sixth day.

 

But some don't seem convinced by the plant argument. Okay. Let's say, just for fun, that Adam WAS created after the plants. Let's say that you really really can't follow the way this was set up, and need a tad more proof. Here. This section should help affirm things.

 

So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

 

And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

 

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

Animals. Animals were created prior to man on the sixth day. Well, if we visit chapter 2...

 

The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

 

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

 

Adam was around prior to the animals. And yet, the Chapter 1 account says animals were created prior to man. This shows, yet again, that Adam was created prior to the "man" of the Day Six account.

 

Also:

 

Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

 

But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

 

Cain was worried that others may find and kill him. If his parents were the only others on the earth, who would he have had to worry about? Also, the land of Nod was known as the land of wanderers. Who was wandering for it to be named so? Cain, of course, is one... But note the plural. These verses only strengthen the suggestion that Adam, Eve, and their family were not alone.

 

For those that are still unconvinced... That believe Adam was created after the plants and animals, that believe Cain feared the rest of his family, that believe Cain slept with his sister, that believe there were at least 5 accounts of incest to create the human race... I ask you this:

 

Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.

 

Why on earth was Cain building a city? And how was he doing it by himself?

 

Y'know, I find it amazing that the more people argue against me, the more stuff I find to support my argument.

 

I direct everyone to Genesis 6:1-2.

 

When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

 

Where did the daughters of men come from? It is simple to assume that sons of God were those of God's chosen race of peoples, those from the lineage of Adam and Eve. However, it makes a distinction between these and the daughters of men. If there were those that God had chosen special and those that God hadn't... Who were the ones God hadn't chosen special?

 

 

 

Topic 2, Leviticus: Christian Law?

 

WARNING: Sarcasm follows through much of this. If you can't see it, then I'm sorry.

 

To read arguments against the current translations of Leviticus verses used in condemnation of homosexuality, visit post 5.

 

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

 

So. Those that shave are sinning.

 

Keep my decrees.

Do not mate different kinds of animals.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

 

So. Those that crop in cycles, wear polyester cotton mixes, or breed mules are sinning.

 

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean. Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:

 

" 'Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. Anyone who touches his bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Whoever touches the man who has a discharge must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'If the man with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, that person must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Everything the man sits on when riding will be unclean, and whoever touches any of the things that were under him will be unclean till evening; whoever picks up those things must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water.

 

" 'When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean. On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest. The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge.

 

" 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

 

 

" 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.

 

" 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.

 

" 'You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.' "

 

These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen, for a woman in her monthly period, for a man or a woman with a discharge, and for a man who lies with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.

 

So. Semen is "unclean". Women on periods must be cast out due to their uncleanliness.

 

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.

 

" 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. The coney, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

 

" 'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales-whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water-you are to detest. And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you.

 

" 'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

 

" 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.

 

" 'You will make yourselves unclean by these; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Every animal that has a split hoof not completely divided or that does not chew the cud is unclean for you; whoever touches the carcass of any of them will be unclean. Of all the animals that walk on all fours, those that walk on their paws are unclean for you; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up their carcasses must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. They are unclean for you.

 

" 'Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.

 

" 'If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

 

" 'Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

 

" 'These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves in the water and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.' "

 

So. You can't eat lobster or crawfish. Or pork.

 

So why just pick at the verses against homosexuals? Oh, by the way. Christians do not have to follow Levitican Law.

 

He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of fourfooted animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

 

“Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

 

Suddenly the animals aren't unclean. But, some people don't seem to appreciate the double meaning behind this dream. So, straight from Christ's mouth is this:

 

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

 

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

 

That's right. Christ said it. All the foods are officially clean.

 

Oh, and here.

 

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul– men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

 

If you are Christian, you are not to follow the Levitican laws, as mentioned in Acts 15. If you are Jewish, either follow all the laws, or just realize that you're not doing so hot as a Jew and don't follow any.

 

Let us not forget the verses Collosians 2:14 and Hebrews 7:18 either.

 

having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

 

Who are we to negate the sacrifice of Christ?

 

 

 

Topic 3, Sodom: Burned For Homosexual Sex?

 

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is as such: Lot, the nephew of Abraham, was living in the city of Sodom. Abraham had pleaded to God to spare the city under the condition that 10 righteous men were found there.

 

Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

 

When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

 

Unfortunately, that condition was failed to be met. However, God felt compassion towards Lot, and sent two angels to warn him of the impending doom of the city before its destruction. When they arrived, however, they were accosted by citizens of Sodom.

 

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

 

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

 

"Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

 

But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

 

The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

 

With these verses, a couple of key things are to be noted. First, note that Lot mentioned the men were protected. Second, note that he offered his daughters. The protection is to be noted because inhospitality was a grievous offense. Just as in the Roman myth of Jupiter and Mercury visiting Baucis and Philemon, hospitality was rewarded as you never knew who would be in your house. Lot offering his daughters shows that, as he was their father and thus their consent, that he was offering them consenting sex as opposed to rape. Also:

 

Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

 

God mentions an outcry that reached him. Would men consenting to homosexual sex cry out to God? No. Would people being raped repeatedly cry out to God? The answer is yes. Also, why would the sin of homosexuality be so grievous back then that it was worthy of razing an entire city, but is today not worthy enough for anything? The reason is that homosexuality was not the sin mentioned. The sin is rape and, slightly lesser, inhospitality. Note:

 

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

 

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 

Arrogance, gluttony, and apathy. Not helping the poor and needy, or being inhospitable. Haughty: Above the law. And detestable things? Rape. Case 2:

 

But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

 

If you are not welcomed into a town, it says... If they are not hospitable to you, then they will suffer pains worse than that of Sodom.

 

I'd say that about clinches the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, wouldn't you? Don't assume that since we have this word sodomy to refer to anal sex that Sodom's sin was sodomy.

 

 

 

Topic 4, New Testament: Condemning Gays?

 

Some will say that homosexuality falls under the category of sexual immorality, as mentioned in Acts 15:29. But commonly mistranslated for homosexuality is a section in Romans:

 

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

In these passages, it blatantly states that lust was the cause behind their sin. Not only is lust a sexual immorality, but so is sleeping around.

 

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

 

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

 

This verse says to "flee sexual immorality", but it only mentions whoring yourself. Further, to prove that God condones ALL forms of love, including homosexual love:

 

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

 

These verses, properly interpreted and read, not misquote or drug out of context, show that God is behind all forms of love, and that lust and prostitutional fornication are the sexual sins mentioned. The verses from 1 John specifically refer to unconditional love. It states that any love that is unconditional is from God. Homosexuals can love their partners unconditionally, therefore, can have unions blessed by God.

 

 

 

Topic 5, Gay Marriage: UnChristian?

 

I don't even need Bible verses for this. As I've already proven that homosexuality is not a sin in accordance with the Bible, there should be nothing wrong. However, if that isn't enough, picture this:

 

Christianity was formed approximately 2000 years ago. Jesus has been judged to die at around 28 AD (Born in 5 BC). Marriage has been a concept since ancient Sumeria. Which is much older than two thousand years. Or, even better: The Roman Empire, founded 57 BC I believe. Before Jesus. Marriage happened. Better than that: Judaism, the religion that Christianity started upon? Marriages occurred.

 

Obviously, marriage is not a Christian concept. Holy matrimony was made into a Catholic rite long ago, but America is not a Christian nation. Therefore, Christianity would have no control over the marraiges in America anyways. Since homosexuality is not a sin, marriage is not a sin, and Christians have no control over marriage, it can be drawn, then, that homosexual marriage is not a sin, or unChristian.

 

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The following excerpt is an analysis of 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, done by Gaian Saltski Circe

 

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

Love never fails.

 

Paul does not explicitly say here that this "love" is in any way limited to "a man or a woman." He gives no gender restrictions whatsoever.

 

Taking off Loki's analysis, therefore, a homosexual would only be lying to himself and torturing himself were he to deny his feelings or, even worse, trying to love women, and lying is one of the sins prohibited by the Ten Commandments. For example: One could easily take “Thou shalt not commit adultery” as a statement referring to any sort of sexual perversion and, thus, making homosexuality sinful.

 

However, according to Wikipedia….

 

“Adultery is defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a married woman who is not his wife.”

 

There are no other mentions of sexual perversion in the Ten Commandments, including ones that condemn homosexuality. Again, take into account that the Commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor,” though it references lying about one’s neighbor, clearly could condemn lying of any kind—especially to oneself.

 

Referring to Paul’s line about homosexuality and "unnatural lusts," it is to be noted this "love" he speaks of is not "kind and gentle." It is not a giving love; it is a love based off selfish needs, curiosity, and sexual gratification. It is an all-consuming, uncontrollable desire simply based off of taking and satisfying one's own pleasure. It is not “rejoicing in the truth.” You can easily say that this inflammation of lust is most certainly envious, boastful and proud.

 

What could be said of it, therefore, is that it is "unnatural," because there is an imbalance of compromise. Take a look at any stable, committed couple--they're not in a relationship just to copulate, but rather to be there for one another and support one another through thick and thin. Any purely sexual relationship would not do such a thing. Judging by the fact that Paul, once again, offers no gender-specifics, it cannot be assumed it applies to only heterosexual relationships, and it's more logical to conclude it means any sexually gratifying relationship.

 

Now take into account the fact that, in reality, most homosexuals are not promiscuous, do not have sex with ten thousand men, have AIDS, and can raise children in a perfectly stable, loving home. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule--but humans have a tendency to focus on the most negative parts of themselves, especially in terms of religion.

 

I myself know two lesbians who live together and they are the happiest, most giving, most caring of each other. They are no more or less hormone ridden than the next two straight people. They are not perverts. They are there for one another. The love they share is no more or less valid than a heterosexual relationship and seems to meet with all the tenants that Paul outlines here. I go to an all-girls school, and lesbian relationships are not uncommon. And from what I have seen, it is their devotion towards one another that defines what Paul says what love is all about; something that “always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres.”

 

Thus, this line could very well apply to both homosexuals AND heterosexuals in that, if the beauty, intimacy and trust needed in any romantic relationship is there, then theirs is a love that will “never fail.”

 

Need we say more?

 

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EDIT: 4/5/07

 

It would seem we DO need to say more! Welcome to the 6th Topic!

 

"But Paul specifically condemns homosexuals!" - Insinuating that arsenokoitai and malakos translate into sodomites, effeminate, or homosexuals.

 

 

 

Topic 6, Paul: The Ever-Hateful Christian?

 

Paul has been described as a man who looks down on women and also as the soul source of anti-homosexual sentiment in the New Testament. People constantly forget two things, however. The first is the fact that, before Christ laid the Holy Smackdown of Conversion on Saul of Tarsus, Saul/Paul was a hugely devout Jew. A Pharisee with the most anal retentiveness to the law as was possible. At times, he allowed personal opinion on how the Church should be run to enter his Epistles. He has even specifically said such things. For example:

 

To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

 

He specifically states that his own opinion is being inserted. On to the second thing too many people forget about Paul and his Epistles: Many, if not most, of the things he wrote about were specific to the time, culture, and region he was writing to. To bring up the Romans quote again:

 

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

Take note of what I have bolded there. It is a key verse, a key note that must be remembered to understand what Paul is talking of in the next part.

 

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

Now. We have some key words in this part. Shameful, lusts, natural relations, indecent acts, perversion. These key words, when added to the verses above as well as a knowledge of Roman society, tell us something. We know that homosexuality is natural as it occurs in nature, yes? But even if it wasn't, what could Paul be talking about? What could he have knowledge of just by walking through the streets of Rome?

 

The Roman god Bacchus was a god of wine and pleasure. He, as well as other members of the pantheon, was celebrated with festivals that appropriately resembled or reenacted some aspect or story of the deity. When celebrating Minerva, goddess of crafts, they would weave a large blanket to drape over her statue. To celebrate Bacchus, god of wine and pleasure, they would get into a state of public drunkenness and have extremely large orgies that would last for days.

 

Such a public event is something Paul most likely had the "honor" of viewing when taking his trip through Rome. Remember that key verse that mentioned serving and worshiping things that weren't God? These festivals were definitely signs of worship to other gods. Still, people will say, "Well, Paul condemns homosexuals later in his Epistles, so it must've still been about gays."

 

Firstly, one must ask how Paul would've known about any homosexual acts the Romans did unless they were in public. Secondly, and most importantly, one must look to see if Paul actually condemns homosexuals. There are two verses that use the word homosexuals in the Modern English versions of the Bible, or at least many of the popular ones. Let's look at them in English, shall we?

 

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

The next verse isn't commonly translated as homosexual, so we will temporarily depart from our use of the NIV.

 

and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

 

Now. That's what they say in English. Homosexuals, homosexual offenders, effeminate, or sodomites. Let's look at them in Greek.

 

Homosexual, in Greek, is now: ομοφυλοφιλικός, or omophulophilikos as best as my translating abilities carry me. Now, we'll play spot the word.

 

ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε: οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε πλεονέκται, οὐ μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομήσουσιν.

 

That section that I've bolded is where the words translated to homosexual and company are. Let's look at them closely.

 

μαλακοὶ, or malakoi, and ἀρσενοκοῖται, or arsenokoitai. Do those look like ομοφυλοφιλικός, or omophulophilikos? On to Timothy.

 

πόρνοις, ἀρσενοκοίταις, ἀνδραποδισταῖς, ψεύσταις, ἐπιόρκοις, καὶ εἴ τι ἕτερον τῇ ὑγιαινούσῃ διδασκαλίᾳ ἀντίκειται,

 

See ομοφυλοφιλικός? Doubtful. ἀρσενοκοίταις is what shows up. It says arsenokoitais, which I'm told is the same as arsenokoitai. Still isn't omophulophilikos.

 

To continue with this, I will quote a man who has done much more research on the subject than I could at my age.

 

Now what do the writings of Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 say, first, about God, and then about homosexuality? These are the last two places in the Bible that seem to refer to same-sex behavior. We can combine them because they are so similar.

 

Paul is exasperated. The Christians in Ephesus and Corinth are fighting among themselves. (Sound familiar?) In Corinth they're even suing one another in secular courts. Paul shouts across the distance, "You are breaking God's heart by the way you are treating one another."

 

Like any good writer, Paul anticipates their first question: "Well, how are we supposed to treat one another?" Paul answers, "You know very well how to treat one another from the Jewish law written on tablets of stone."

 

The Jewish law was created by God to help regulate human behavior. To remind the churches in Corinth and Ephesus how God wants us to treat one another, Paul recites examples from the Jewish law first. Don't kill one another. Don't sleep with a person who is married to someone else. Don't lie or cheat or steal. The list goes on to include admonitions against fornication, idolatry, whoremongering, perjury, drunkenness, revelry, and extortion. He also includes "malokois" and "arsenokoitai."

 

Here's where the confusion begins. What's a malokois? What's an arsenokoitai? Actually, those two Greek words have confused scholars to this very day. We'll say more about them later, when we ask what the texts say about sex. But first let's see what the texts say about God.

 

After quoting from the Jewish law, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they are under a new law: the law of Jesus, a law of love that requires us to do more than just avoid murder, adultery, lying, cheating, and stealing. Paul tells them what God wants is not strict adherence to a list of laws, but a pure heart, a good conscience, and a faith that isn't phony.

 

That's the lesson we all need to learn from these texts. God doesn't want us squabbling over who is "in" and who is "out." God wants us to love one another. It's God's task to judge us. It is NOT our task to judge one another.

 

So what do these two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?

 

Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes."

 

As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means.

 

In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.

 

In the past, people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid. People still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society.

 

Now we have to ask ourselves, "Is it happening again?" Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used to reflect society's prejudice and condemn God's gay children?

 

We all need to look more closely at that mysterious Greek word arsenokoitai in its original context. I find most convincing the argument from history that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just as they hired smooth-skinned young girls for that purpose.

 

Responsible homosexuals would join Paul in condemning anyone who uses children for sex, just as we would join anyone else in condemning the threatened gang rape in Sodom or the behavior of the sex-crazed priests and priestesses in Rome. So, once again, I am convinced that this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

 

A big question to ask is this: "If Paul didn't condemn homosexuals before these two verses... And Christ didn't condemn them... and the Old Testament didn't condemn them... But everything else Paul condemned was condemned by the Old Testament or Christ... Where'd he get it from?"

 

Paul does not condemn homosexuals. Bad translators do.

 

Another chunk I wrote on Paul's passage in Romans:

 

There are numerous clues to understanding that passage. First, "They knew the truth of the Creator, but exchanged it for a lie." (I'm paraphrasing from memory, btw.) In that bit, it says that they knew about God but decided to ignore Him. Second, "They worshiped other gods." There's mentions of animals and such, as I recall. So, they knew about God, ignored Him, and started to worship other gods. Idolatry. Third, "So, God gave them to shameful lusts." Now, there's actually two things in that. First, "God gave them [...]" This wording is reminiscent of God turning the heart of the Pharaoh, or even better, removing His Spirit from King Solomon. If we recall the story of Solomon, Solomon was loved and blessed by God. However, Solomon began worshiping other gods. The gods of his wives. God, angered and saddened, removed His Spirit and allowed Solomon to fall into a degenerative path. The second bit, tied in with the Solomon story, is the word lusts. Shameful lusts, at that. Now, Solomon had tons of wives. He gave into their religious ways to please them because of their beauty. Lust. Which we already know is a sin. If Paul's "they" is indeed the Romans, there is a distinct possibility that Paul is referring to orgies. Idolatrous orgies. (Which is something Solomon could've done with his wives, btw...) In the Roman religion, there were many different sexual festivals and feasts. One that I like to liken this verse grouping to is the feast of Bacchus. Bacchus, as some may know, is the Roman equivalent of the Greek Dionysus. He is the god of debauchery and hedonism and, more importantly, alcohol. Wine. Bacchus had a group of women that followed him around the world, the Maenids. Crazy crazy sexual women. Like, by crazy, I mean insane. Anyways, one of the ways the Romans celebrated Bacchus was by getting piss-cabbage drunk and having raunchy, orgiastic sex. With everything and everyone. In public. I'd personally think that a public drunken orgy is rather shameful, wouldn't you? And it's definitely unnatural.

 

 

@Lilshu: Don't feel bad, no one's figured out how to spoiler it, and frankly I have no idea how, it turned into a really REALLY big mess last time I tried.

Edited by Cxkslei
I tried to spoiler that, because it stretches the page so much. But your post refuses to be tamed. -lilshu

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If you're not here to be open to a change of mind - and just here to smack your opinion onto others, you need to grasp the basic concept of discussions: it's a two-way road.

 

I consider "discussion" a group sharing of arguments and opinions, and not changing others' opinions. I will listen to your opinions only if you do listen to mine, but I will never change my opinion. So, nope, I'm not open to a change of mind.

 

Yes, you did - you said you thought we had a disgusting mental illness. There is no arguing over something that is a fact. Homosexuality is not a mental illness - that's a fact.

 

And you're disallowing me to think that you are mentally retarded? It can be fact a few million times, and you can be a mod a few billion times, but homosexuality will always be considered a mentally illness in my mind.

 

B) They're attracted to males. - Oh wait, that's not a choice. :roll:

 

Since on all of my previous posts, I was not discussing the A option, I will only answer B. While you can be attracted to males, if you do not want to be gay, you will not be. I might be attracted to males, but I aren't obliged to become gay if so.

 

Murder is an act of hatred. Sexuality is a result of love. - see the difference?

 

But both of them CAN be caused by a mental illness.

 

I have a penis and I lack breasts/a vagina - therefore I am male.

 

Who has sex with males? Who is attracted to males? Females. What are you then?

 

You are confusing homosexuals to transgenders. and you are confusing sex and genders too.

 

Your post itself says that transgenders have a disorder with which they have properties from both genders, and now are saying it's not transgendering to be homosexual? :)

 

Besides, m/m porn > lesbian porn.

 

You say that because you are gay and are attracted to males, and not females.

 

You realize how awfully, awfully, awfully hypocritical that is to say?

 

Since when do I not have the right to be a hypocrite?

 

That you're a self-righteous deus who thinks their opinion matters more then anyone elses? If you don't intend to at least consider other people's opinions in a debate then that simply makes you ignorant.

 

This is weird. People are calling me hypocrite for changing my opinion and ignorant for not changing it. I'm confused. Should I change my opinion because someone doesn't think like me, or should I stand strict to my opinion?

 

If "doing your word to the end" to you is ignorance, then, I am ignorant.

 

It's a debate, your allowed to think about people's opinions and retaliate to what they said, that's the purpose of a debate.

 

But I'm also allowed to have my own opinion and not be flamed for not changing it by half the forum, right?

 

it is a result genetics AND the environment they were raised in.

 

Thanks for proving me right that homosexuality is due to ilnesses and traumas that happen in the environment people were raised in :aware:

 

Then you don't follow your religion. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Yet you have just said you hate sinners which makes you one according to your religion.

 

Can you please stop putting Religion into everything? I will ignore any posts including Religion, since I can't talk to deaf people. Sorry, it's impossible.

 

Then we should be stoning people who have sex before marriage to death? That's what that logic implies.

 

Where did I say something similar to that?

 

And that's why people fight for equal rights, is it really that hard to comprehend that logic?

 

Yes, but not everyone has the same rights, what I was trying to say.

 

It isn't a decision, it is what they are stuck with. Did you choose to be straight? No, the same applies to the vice versa even though you can't seem to comprehend that logic.

 

Thanks, yes I did. :)

 

IN YOUR OPINION.

 

Yep. Not necessarily true.

 

And liking lesbians because of porn?

 

I don't "like" lesbians. Even if I have watched porn, I haven't watched lesbian porn. I think they are not as disgusting as male homosexuals, but they still are homosexual, and I still do dislike them.

 

Then that just proves that your arrogant.

 

So, if I say I accept them and in 5 minutes say I don't accept them, I'm a hypocrite.

If I say I accept them and say I'm not planning to change my opinion, I'm arrogant.

 

Sure, I'll be any names you're calling me. But I have my own opinion, and I'll damn support it.

 

 

I see that people aren't trying to cooperate, discuss or anything, and all they do is flame me for:

 

- being Religious

- not changing my opinion

- being grossed by homosexuals

Edited by lilshu

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If you're not here to be open to a change of mind - and just here to smack your opinion onto others, you need to grasp the basic concept of discussions: it's a two-way road.

 

I consider "discussion" a group sharing of arguments and opinions, and not changing others' opinions. I will listen to your opinions only if you do listen to mine, but I will never change my opinion. So, nope, I'm not open to a change of mind.

 

Yes, you did - you said you thought we had a disgusting mental illness. There is no arguing over something that is a fact. Homosexuality is not a mental illness - that's a fact.

 

And you're disallowing me to think that you are mentally retarded? It can be fact a few million times, and you can be a mod a few billion times, but homosexuality will always be considered a mentally illness in my mind.

 

B) They're attracted to males. - Oh wait, that's not a choice. :roll:

 

Since on all of my previous posts, I was not discussing the A option, I will only answer B. While you can be attracted to males, if you do not want to be gay, you will not be. I might be attracted to males, but I aren't obliged to become gay if so.

 

Murder is an act of hatred. Sexuality is a result of love. - see the difference?

 

But both of them CAN be caused by a mental illness.

 

I have a penis and I lack breasts/a vagina - therefore I am male.

 

Who has sex with males? Who is attracted to males? Females. What are you then?

You missed the point where your sex is determined by your genitalia, nothing more.

You are confusing homosexuals to transgenders. and you are confusing sex and genders too.

 

Your post itself says that transgenders have a disorder with which they have properties from both genders, and now are saying it's not transgendering to be homosexual? :)

 

Besides, m/m porn > lesbian porn.

 

You say that because you are gay and are attracted to males, and not females.

 

You realize how awfully, awfully, awfully hypocritical that is to say?

 

Since when do I not have the right to be a hypocrite?

 

That you're a self-righteous deus who thinks their opinion matters more then anyone elses? If you don't intend to at least consider other people's opinions in a debate then that simply makes you ignorant.

 

This is weird. People are calling me hypocrite for changing my opinion and ignorant for not changing it. I'm confused. Should I change my opinion because someone doesn't think like me, or should I stand strict to my opinion?

 

If "doing your word to the end" to you is ignorance, then, I am ignorant.

 

It's a debate, your allowed to think about people's opinions and retaliate to what they said, that's the purpose of a debate.

 

But I'm also allowed to have my own opinion and not be flamed for not changing it by half the forum, right?

 

it is a result genetics AND the environment they were raised in.

 

Thanks for proving me right that homosexuality is due to ilnesses and traumas that happen in the environment people were raised in :aware:

Now you're putting words I didn't say in there. I didn't say it was a result of trauma or illness, I said it was influenced by heredity and environment. It's not one or the other, it's a combination of both, they cannot be seperated.

Then you don't follow your religion. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Yet you have just said you hate sinners which makes you one according to your religion.

 

Can you please stop putting Religion into everything? I will ignore any posts including Religion, since I can't talk to deaf people. Sorry, it's impossible.

 

Then we should be stoning people who have sex before marriage to death? That's what that logic implies.

 

Where did I say something similar to that?

 

And that's why people fight for equal rights, is it really that hard to comprehend that logic?

 

Yes, but not everyone has the same rights, what I was trying to say.

Which is why we fight for them and people will eventually be given them.

It isn't a decision, it is what they are stuck with. Did you choose to be straight? No, the same applies to the vice versa even though you can't seem to comprehend that logic.

 

Thanks, yes I did. :)

You really should go take a course in psychology and biology before arguing with fallible logic since you didn't choose, you simply are.

 

IN YOUR OPINION.

 

Yep. Not necessarily true.

 

And liking lesbians because of porn?

 

I don't "like" lesbians. Even if I have watched porn, I haven't watched lesbian porn. I think they are not as disgusting as male homosexuals, but they still are homosexual, and I still do dislike them.

 

Then that just proves that your arrogant.

 

So, if I say I accept them and in 5 minutes say I don't accept them, I'm a hypocrite.

If I say I accept them and say I'm not planning to change my opinion, I'm arrogant.

 

Sure, I'll be any names you're calling me. But I have my own opinion, and I'll damn support it.

 

 

I see that people aren't trying to cooperate, discuss or anything, and all they do is flame me for:

 

- being Religious

- not changing my opinion

- being grossed by homosexuals

Being unrational by failing to use sources to back up what you believe. Otherwise I could say that Columbine, Virginia Tech and every other school shooting is justified in my mind which would make it equally right, but we both know that isn't true.

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Your post itself says that transgenders have a disorder with which they have properties from both genders, and now are saying it's not transgendering to be homosexual? :aware:

 

1. I did not say it is a disorder.

 

2. Transgendering is not being homosexual. Being homosexual is to be attracted to the same sex. (This also adds to the fact that you think it is a choice. No, you are homosexual if you are attracted to the same sex. Thats the definition. Don't twist it around, it's a fact.) Transgender is to have traces of personality from the other gender. (Eg. being male with female instincts like shopping make up etc. or being a girl with male instincts like sport etc.)

 

 

You find it wrong that males act like a women. That is a transgender.

 

You find it wrong when a male dresses like a women. That is a cross dresser. (Most of the time is a transgender, but not all the time. some men just do it for the hell of it)

 

You find homosexuals wrong. They are attracted to the same sex.

 

 

And may i stress this again. Homosexuality is when you are attracted to the same sex, not because you choose to be one. I'm bisexual, and for a long time i didnt choose to tell that to anyone.

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Your post itself says that transgenders have a disorder with which they have properties from both genders, and now are saying it's not transgendering to be homosexual? :aware:

 

1. I did not say it is a disorder.

 

2. Transgendering is not being homosexual. Being homosexual is to be attracted to the same sex. (This also adds to the fact that you think it is a choice. No, you are homosexual if you are attracted to the same sex. Thats the definition. Don't twist it around, it's a fact.) Transgender is to have traces of personality from the other gender. (Eg. being male with female instincts like shopping make up etc. or being a girl with male instincts like sport etc.)

 

 

You find it wrong that males act like a women. That is a transgender.

 

You find it wrong when a male dresses like a women. That is a cross dresser. (Most of the time is a transgender, but not all the time. some men just do it for the hell of it)

 

You find homosexuals wrong. They are attracted to the same sex.

 

 

And may i stress this again. Homosexuality is when you are attracted to the same sex, not because you choose to be one. I'm bisexual, and for a long time i didnt choose to tell that to anyone.

 

Give it up Amanda. Arguing with Jackonor is like banging your head against the brick wall. Besides, you could find something much more important to do with your time. Like anything that doesn't involve Jackonor.

 

~Hutton~

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Jackonor, I see that your opinion seems to be set in stone. Regardless of the logic and evidence agansit it. Instead of arguing with you, I wish you luck in your life. Because when you're as ignorant as you are, you can't go anywhere in life.

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It isn't a decision, it is what they are stuck with. Did you choose to be straight? No, the same applies to the vice versa even though you can't seem to comprehend that logic.

 

Thanks, yes I did.

 

Uh, no you didn't. You were born into your orientation just like race.

 

Since when do I not have the right to be a hypocrite?

 

Gtfo if you want to be a hypocrite. You're like talking to a wall. You're oblivious to everything, either from the lack of intellect or can't accept you're wrong. Won't even bring religion to this, because most people that are religious, even though against homosexuality, aren't as bad as you.

 

You = disgrace to whatever hate group you're part of.

 

Murder is an act of hatred. Sexuality is a result of love. - see the difference?

 

 

But both of them CAN be caused by a mental illness.

 

What, another hyprocisy. So you're attraction to the female gender is also a mental illness?

lol, wtf, you can't even make a cohesive argument for why you're against people who aren't of "straight" orientation. Actually, you don't even have an argument.

 

 

Not gonna argue with a wall, you waste my breath. Keep your beliefs so people can hate you. don't expect anyone to give you respect, if you can't give some to others yourself.

 

You have taught me something, so i'll thank you for that. Now I know how racial bias came up from stupid, simple-minded people who couldn't accept others of different skin colors because these people saw themselves as superior and the only ones that are correct.

Edited by cjgone

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- being Religious

Is perfectly alright, so long as you do not use your religion as an excuse for being wrong. :aware:

 

- not changing my opinion

Is perfectly alright, so long as it's because you're right and not because you're simply stubborn.

 

- being grossed by homosexuals

Is never really justifiable whatsoever. I suggest you desensitise yourself to it because there will be a time when you'll have to deal closely with a gay person -- maybe at work, maybe in your family -- and you being grossed out will only hurt you and them.

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<post>

 

Give it up Amanda. Arguing with Jackonor is like banging your head against the brick wall. Besides, you could find something much more important to do with your time. Like anything that doesn't involve Jackonor.

 

~Hutton~

 

I am not arguing, i have avoided that all the way through this topic. I understand he doesn't want to change his opinion, but i want him to understand correctly things that people always get wrong.

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I'm finding it difficult to follow with all the quotes so I've chosen to add green text denoting my replies under the quotations.

 

 

If you're not here to be open to a change of mind - and just here to smack your opinion onto others, you need to grasp the basic concept of discussions: it's a two-way road.

 

I consider "discussion" a group sharing of arguments and opinions, and not changing others' opinions. I will listen to your opinions only if you do listen to mine, but I will never change my opinion. So, nope, I'm not open to a change of mind.

 

Yes, you did - you said you thought we had a disgusting mental illness. There is no arguing over something that is a fact. Homosexuality is not a mental illness - that's a fact.

 

And you're disallowing me to think that you are mentally retarded? It can be fact a few million times, and you can be a mod a few billion times, but homosexuality will always be considered a mentally illness in my mind.

 

*If you're asserting the opinion that homosexuals are mentally retarded then why aren't we all? After all, isn't homosexuality fundamentally just another manifestation of attraction or desire for another person? The connection and love felt between two people (regardless of their gender) is a worthy enough cause to me and something I wouldn't consider to be an indication of mental illness.

B) They're attracted to males. - Oh wait, that's not a choice. :roll:

 

Since on all of my previous posts, I was not discussing the A option, I will only answer B. While you can be attracted to males, if you do not want to be gay, you will not be. I might be attracted to males, but I aren't obliged to become gay if so.

 

**Your logic is flawed here. I recall you saying you are attracted to females, but if you also felt an attraction for males that would make you bisexual. The attraction you feel is what determines your sexual orientation - not whether you act upon it. :)

 

Murder is an act of hatred. Sexuality is a result of love. - see the difference?

 

But both of them CAN be caused by a mental illness.

 

I have a penis and I lack breasts/a vagina - therefore I am male.

 

Who has sex with males? Who is attracted to males? Females. What are you then?

 

You are confusing homosexuals to transgenders. and you are confusing sex and genders too.

 

Your post itself says that transgenders have a disorder with which they have properties from both genders, and now are saying it's not transgendering to be homosexual? :)

 

Besides, m/m porn > lesbian porn.

 

You say that because you are gay and are attracted to males, and not females.

 

You realize how awfully, awfully, awfully hypocritical that is to say?

 

Since when do I not have the right to be a hypocrite?

 

***It's generally seen as a bad thing if one action or belief contradicts another similar situation where it can be applied in the same context. Such is the fact that you happen to believe homosexuality is a mental illness. You stated that you think it is disgusting and sick for males but acceptable for females (i.e. lesbians or bisexual women). It just seems to send a strong message that your opinion is absurdly biased.

 

That you're a self-righteous deus who thinks their opinion matters more then anyone elses? If you don't intend to at least consider other people's opinions in a debate then that simply makes you ignorant.

 

This is weird. People are calling me hypocrite for changing my opinion and ignorant for not changing it. I'm confused. Should I change my opinion because someone doesn't think like me, or should I stand strict to my opinion?

 

If "doing your word to the end" to you is ignorance, then, I am ignorant.

 

****No, your beliefs are ignorant because you know very little about the issue here and yet you choose to uphold such extreme and intolerant views about homosexual people. I.e. it is disgusting, sick et cetera. How do you consider homosexual sex acts to be any more disgusting than heterosexual sex acts?

 

 

It's a debate, your allowed to think about people's opinions and retaliate to what they said, that's the purpose of a debate.

 

But I'm also allowed to have my own opinion and not be flamed for not changing it by half the forum, right?

*****Having people reply to your views in disagreement is not considered flaming. Flaming would be people saying something along the lines of "gtfo - religion is immoral" or something like that. It seems a lot of people don't agree with your point of view (not you as a person) here. As you are entitled to voicing your opinion and responding to other peoples' opinions, so are they. The debating room isn't a place where you simply state what you believe - that undermines it's actual purpose. :P

 

 

it is a result genetics AND the environment they were raised in.

 

Thanks for proving me right that homosexuality is due to ilnesses and traumas that happen in the environment people were raised in :aware:

 

Then you don't follow your religion. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Yet you have just said you hate sinners which makes you one according to your religion.

 

Can you please stop putting Religion into everything? I will ignore any posts including Religion, since I can't talk to deaf people. Sorry, it's impossible.

 

Then we should be stoning people who have sex before marriage to death? That's what that logic implies.

 

Where did I say something similar to that?

 

And that's why people fight for equal rights, is it really that hard to comprehend that logic?

 

Yes, but not everyone has the same rights, what I was trying to say.

 

It isn't a decision, it is what they are stuck with. Did you choose to be straight? No, the same applies to the vice versa even though you can't seem to comprehend that logic.

 

Thanks, yes I did. :)

 

IN YOUR OPINION.

 

Yep. Not necessarily true.

 

And liking lesbians because of porn?

 

I don't "like" lesbians. Even if I have watched porn, I haven't watched lesbian porn. I think they are not as disgusting as male homosexuals, but they still are homosexual, and I still do dislike them.

******Why do you consider them less disgusting than male homosexuals?

 

Then that just proves that your arrogant.

 

So, if I say I accept them and in 5 minutes say I don't accept them, I'm a hypocrite.

If I say I accept them and say I'm not planning to change my opinion, I'm arrogant.

 

Sure, I'll be any names you're calling me. But I have my own opinion, and I'll damn support it.

*If someone says they accept homosexual people and criticise others of not doing it when they don't put it into practice either, then they are a hypocrite. How can you say you accept homosexuality and believe it to be a mental illness at the same time? That's not possible.

 

I see that people aren't trying to cooperate, discuss or anything, and all they do is flame me for:

 

- being Religious

- not changing my opinion

- being grossed by homosexuals

I agree with Evin on this one.

Edited by I Tehehe I

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She says: i don't think its fair that my husband should take blame for what I said.

Isnt it not fair that you can call homosexuality a sin, based on the fact that a non-proven god told you so.

 

Frankly I'm not gay or religious. What someone feels is not my problem. If people are gay, they are gay! nothing you should try to do about it. Another point i want to say is that I do think its a little weird. Im not gonna lie. But who cares, its an opinion. The problem with people like this is that they try to force their opinions on others, Which is horrible.

 

So its fine in my opinion and people should leave other people that they find have wrong ethics alone :aware:

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This article has me disgusted. Homosexuality is NOT an abomination.

 

:)

 

 

I am glad that not every Christian believes this, still, this is one of the reasons why I currently don't have a religion.

 

 

Once religions start accepting EVERYONE, I might change my mind. :aware:

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Once religions start accepting EVERYONE, I might change my mind. :aware:

Well, it doesn't matter whether religions do -- what matters is whether God does. :)

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Once religions start accepting EVERYONE, I might change my mind. :aware:

Well, it doesn't matter whether religions do -- what matters is whether God does. :)

Deism.

 

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

 

Deism is the belief in natural religion only, or those truths, in doctrine and practice, which man is to discover by the light of reason, independent of any revelation from God. Hence, deism implies infidelity, or a disbelief in the divine origin of the Scriptures.

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Once religions start accepting EVERYONE, I might change my mind. :aware:

Well, it doesn't matter whether religions do -- what matters is whether God does. :)

Leave it to Evin to focus on specifics. :)

 

 

:)

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