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robber341

Proof Of God

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For once I'll give you reason on something - a "weaker" version of God could exist, such as the "sourve of energy" or "creator" I talked about earlier, that sort of God couldn't be said to not exist. Who's power would be limited to create the universe, as everything needs to be created by something, by logic.

You've lost me - how was this limited God created?

 

 

He wouldn't, supposing there was a beginning to "who created who" and supposing time isn't infinite, which doesn't seem logical. If you had to put a beginning to "who created who" it would have been that.. God. But the fact there is a beginning isn't even sure.

I'm suggesting that you have two choices - either you believe in infinity, either you don't. If you do, then you'll never know how it started as there wasn't a beginning. If you do, then you believe in that sort of God. But I'm afraid infinity is a whole other discussion.

That's why I've never understood religion, because I've never grasped the fact that God wasn't created.

 

~Magical

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For once I'll give you reason on something - a "weaker" version of God could exist, such as the "sourve of energy" or "creator" I talked about earlier, that sort of God couldn't be said to not exist. Who's power would be limited to create the universe, as everything needs to be created by something, by logic.

You've lost me - how was this limited God created?

 

 

He wouldn't, supposing there was a beginning to "who created who" and supposing time isn't infinite, which doesn't seem logical. If you had to put a beginning to "who created who" it would have been that.. God. But the fact there is a beginning isn't even sure.

I'm suggesting that you have two choices - either you believe in infinity, either you don't. If you do, then you'll never know how it started as there wasn't a beginning. If you do, then you believe in that sort of God. But I'm afraid infinity is a whole other discussion.

That's why I've never understood religion, because I've never grasped the fact that God wasn't created.

 

~Magical

That could tie in to what I said before, that God exists outside everything we understand as "time". Probably outside everything we understand as "space" too.

If so, if we did manage to "see" God, we would not be able to properly grasp its "form"... it might not be very good for our sanity. Regardless of its personality, God's nature may be so mind-shattering that it would make HP Lovecraft's creations look pleasant. Our sense of time and space would be totally shattered.

 

Either that, or we just plain wouldn't know what we were looking at.

Edited by Superkid711

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(Yes I know I am ignoring what has been said here so far)

 

I think the best proof that there is a god, or for the sake of my argument some sort of an entity up there which has control to some degree over us, is that it is much more probable!

If you think about it logically the world is too complex, too magnificent and with too much "coincidences" to have been created/controlled completely naturally. Also, If you think about it statistically the option of having nothing up there is just 1 : endless other possibilities. I don't know what sort of entity is there, what is its role in our lives and how much we need to worship it but to me it makes sense that there is one there just as much as that there isn't anything up there.

This might be a little confusing, its a very abstract thought I have which I tried to put into words. Try to think of the big, huge picture not of only what you know or belive in. Everything than seems possible and irrelevant at the same time.

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Mostly because the thought of no afterlife scares the crap out of me.

 

The satan symbolism never the less gives atheists a bad name. >.<

I think that the average laymen who is uneducated and morbidly obese with prejudice will misinterpret it, like the herd always does. Satanism as defined by Anton LaVey, I actually sympathize with, it's pretty much a reinterpretation of Nietzschean values, which most people know, I am a big fan of. LaVey's Satanism is little more than radical individualism and an affirmation of life. But I would not identify myself as a Satanist.

 

Proof of G-d, has been tried for since the idea of G-d was born. It is really only in the Western Tradition that we see a sustained and critical inquiry into some kind of rational and logical proof of G-d. Aristotle, Aquinas, Dun Scotus, etc, etc, all tried to find logical, proofs of the existence of G-d, and all failed.

Does this necessitate halting your belief in G-d? No.

Belief in G-d can never, be rationalized, because that which is dependent on belief in G-d, is faith. And faith by its nature is absurd, it is a leap, from a secure mountaintop, to another one. One must make as Kierkegaard said a "leap of faith", and never seek to rationalize G-d's existence, because to do so would negate G-d himself.

And it is the duty of every person with religious convictions to return to the original source material, and read it in a Humanistic light. Read the text in the lens of "love" and "peace". Root out hypocrisy wherever it is found, never let your faith be corrupted by those who simply use it as an excuse for their incarnate will to power.

Yes, but does humanity does not desire truth? If I had faith in god, I would not be able to hold onto it because I know that it has a good chance of being false.

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1) I believe in God because of the miracles and experiences throughout history that have happened to myself, other family and friends, and, like I said, throughout the course of history.

 

What miracles?

http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/no...can-testimonies

These are just a few examples. I'll provide many, many more if you'd like.

 

2) Man caused sin to be in the world, not God, so evil exists because of our downfalls.

 

Your Christian book states that God created everything. Thus, God created sin. If sin was created by something other then God, then there is something more powerful then your God.

Sin has existed in the form of choice when God created humans, giving us the choice to do what is wrong or right.

 

There is no such thing as evidence that something doesn't exist. That's just not possible.

 

God does not exist, as there is no proof that God exists.

See above miracles.

 

1) Unless you can provide another explanation for those miracles, for why people have miraculously been cured and puzzle scientists and doctors, why things I have prayed for to become reality, and things like that, then I think I'll stick with God as a reason.

 

Present one of these "miracles" (that happened outside of the Bible), and I will attempt to explain why it is not a "miracle".

 

You can pray that you have 5 fingers, it will not change the fact that you probably have 5 fingers.

 

Prayer is the irrational (and illogical) belief that thinking thoughts to a non-existing being will affect the future (i.e. you pray for something, thus it happens). I can pray for a million dollars, this will not affect the odds that I have against getting (or finding) a million dollars. If something happened, it happened because the chances for it to happened "added up". If you had not prayed for said thing, it would not have changed that that thing happened.

I don't think that it's random coincidence that myself and others pray for things (that's many things, plural) that soon come true. Too many things come to pass through prayer for me to disregard it as chance.

 

2) Morals are real. Every single human knows it, and you can suppress your conscious and do whatever you like, but you will always know in the back of your mind that there are certain things that are wrong.

 

No, you may believe certain things are wrong, that does not make them so. In order to prove them wrong, one must find evidence to support one's claim (or to prove one's belief right, one must find, and cite, evidence to support one's claim).

So do you think I should be punished if I killed your mother, your father, and every family and friend you ever met? If the answer is yes, then you believe in morals or at the very least, values.

 

1) Conveniant, yes. But is there another explanation? No. Science has absolutely no explanation for thousands of miracles that have happened, and when there's a woman that thousands witness and she claims she's the mother of God, then I think you should believe it (Fatima, anyone?). :cool:

 

Please cite one of these "miracles".

 

Science is based upon fact, it does not claim to know everything. Science, however, does not follow a non-existent being.

 

I can state many false things, it is probable I could get thousands of people to witness my statements, it is also probable I could make false claims, this does not make my false claim(s) true. It simple makes it true that I can state those false claims.

The miracles are cited above, but can you make thousands of these things happen in different places to different people, all have them coincide with a similar theme (eg, a woman appearing telling people to follow her son). Also, you can't 'make up' the fact that people have been miraculously cured. There's no way, I'm sorry.

 

2) Really? Because in the last five thousand years, it's always been deemed 'wrong' to steal, kill intentionally, and things of the sort. I don't think our natural, built-in morals will change soon. >.<

 

"Built in"?

 

It has not been "deemed" wrong. It is simply a pure selfish motivation that centers on self preservation. It is in one's (selfish) self interest to go against killing each other, as this is against what would make a species to survive (and as a off-shot, one's own survival).

"Built in," as in we all believe in them or similar morals and values. So helping others or at the very least, not hurting others is now selfish? No, selfish is hogging these for yourself. Also, many animals kill others of their own species, from preying manti to wolves, they all fight amongst themselves. However, why are humans different? Morals and values, my friend.

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You can not say something doesn't exist because there is no evidence it does exist.

 

Wherein the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster affirm their existence.

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That's just a line of thinking I cannot agree with. God is just a vague and metaphysical enough concept-- and we do not yet understand everything about the world around us -- that it cannot be said for absolute certainty that he does not exist.

 

If God existed, there would be evidence. There is no evidence, thus, God does not exist.

 

I don't think that kind of thinking is wrong or anything, saying something doesn't exist if it has no empirical evidence is fine. But a while back you could have said "The Giant Squid does not exist", but then they started washing up on the beach. (not the best example, I'm sure there are better...) For now you can say there is no God, but it's not as if there's no possibility that that could be debunked if somehow proof were to come up.

 

There have been specimens of the Giant Squid washed up on beaches populated by humans for as long as human kind as been living near the ocean where the Giant Squid is. There has not been a documented case until around 100 years ago (if memory serves).

 

We have evidence to support the Giant squid (both video of a live one, and pictures of dead ones). We have no evidence to support God. Thus, God does not exist.

 

Also, unlike the Giant squid (one that was reported in stories for centuries), the idea of one God-religions post-dates multi-God religions.

 

The "Who created God" paradox can be solved by God existing outside of time. You get into kind of mind screw territory here. But I think, if God does exist, It's a total mind screw to behold. An Eldridge Abomination in the purest sense of the word, regardless of Its personality.

 

This is a opinion put up when people lack any evidence to support the existence of God.

 

Probably the only way we'll ever find out if God exists or not in our lifetimes is at the end of our lifetimes. When we die, we'll either shut off or discover that there is an afterlife. The former may be more likely, but if the latter happens then we may be able to find out for sure whether or not there is a God. Either way, there's no bringing that info back. >.<

 

There is a reason why one cannot bring back that info, there is no after-life. Once you are dead, you are dead, gone, non existing. Because people are scared of dieing (their ego's do not let them believe that once they die, they are gone), they invent God, or many Gods that "take them in" once they die. So that they can live forever.

 

 

There is proof that God has existed, yet I think there is more proof for the fact God doesn't exist. However, you can't declare something doesn't exists if you have no fact it doesn't, the same way you can't declare something exists.

 

I can declare, and prove, that I do not have an invisible 6th finger. The reason for this is simple, I have no evidence to show that I have an invisible 6th finger.

 

You can not say something doesn't exist because there is no evidence it does exist.

 

There is no proof that I do not have a 6th finger on both of my hands. It is irrelevant that I cannot see it, it is only relevant that there is no scientific proof that can prove that I do not have an invisible 6th finger on both of my hands.

 

You cannot disprove that I do not have an invisible 6th finger on both of my hands. It is only logical to conclude, based upon the evidence, however, that I do not have a invisible 6th finger on either of my hands. It is only logical to conclude that God does not exist, based upon the evidence that God does not exist.

http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/no...can-testimonies

These are just a few examples. I'll provide many, many more if you'd like.

 

These are not examples, these are attempts to make people believe in God based upon no evidence. Please show me a case where there is actual evidence to support the existence of God.

 

In court, one of the most unreliable testimony are witness testimonies. People believe what they want to believe (or see what they want to see) regardless of facts. People can be bribed with money, to change their stories, thus making "eye witness" stories false until supported by evidence. You have yet to show any evidence to support either these stories, or your view.

 

Sin has existed in the form of choice when God created humans, giving us the choice to do what is wrong or right.

 

Your God created humans, thus your God created sin. Further more, humans are incapable of creating anything God did not create, as your Bible states that God created humans in his mirror image, if I am not incorrect.

 

I don't think that it's random coincidence that myself and others pray for things (that's many things, plural) that soon come true. Too many things come to pass through prayer for me to disregard it as chance.

 

Those things would happen regardless of if you wished them to happen or not. I can wish to wake up alive in the morning. If I do, that is a random chance that came to pass regardless of if I prayed or not.

 

So do you think I should be punished if I killed your mother, your father, and every family and friend you ever met? If the answer is yes, then you believe in morals or at the very least, values.

 

I believe you should be punished, yes. That does not necessarily make it a moral, or a value, simply what I believe should be the consequences of your actions.

 

The miracles are cited above, but can you make thousands of these things happen in different places to different people, all have them coincide with a similar theme (eg, a woman appearing telling people to follow her son). Also, you can't 'make up' the fact that people have been miraculously cured. There's no way, I'm sorry.

 

Please show, and state a case (with evidence) of a person being "miraculously cured". I can have a woman appear and tell people to follow her son, that does not make me special. Nor does that mean people should follow her son.

 

"Built in," as in we all believe in them or similar morals and values. So helping others or at the very least, not hurting others is now selfish? No, selfish is hogging these for yourself. Also, many animals kill others of their own species, from preying manti to wolves, they all fight amongst themselves. However, why are humans different? Morals and values, my friend.

 

If you help someone, depending on the person, the act itself could be selfish (it is also possible that it is not selfish). The person could expect a reward from helping. Hurting someone is a selfish act.

 

We kill ourselves by fighting amongst ourselves, where are our morals and values there?

 

~John

Edited by John Adams

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That's just a line of thinking I cannot agree with. God is just a vague and metaphysical enough concept-- and we do not yet understand everything about the world around us -- that it cannot be said for absolute certainty that he does not exist.

 

If God existed, there would be evidence. There is no evidence, thus, God does not exist.

Way to completely disregard miracles.

 

http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/no...can-testimonies

These are just a few examples. I'll provide many, many more if you'd like.

 

These are not examples, these are attempts to make people believe in God based upon no evidence. Please show me a case where there is actual evidence to support the existence of God.

The fact that people prayed, and a miracle happened. The fact that a woman has appeared many times to multiple different cultures, some of which didn't even believe in God, telling them to convert. Those miracles wouldn't have happened naturally. Things like people making recoveries that have never happened before simply does not happen without divine help.

 

In court, one of the most unreliable testimony are witness testimonies. People believe what they want to believe (or see what they want to see) regardless of facts. People can be bribed with money, to change their stories, thus making "eye witness" stories false until supported by evidence. You have yet to show any evidence to support either these stories, or your view.

Let's talk about the miraculous appearance of Fatima. A police chief in the local village was a fervent atheist until witnessing it. I'm sure his mind didn't exactly want to see a miracle occur. Also, people in other cultures who might not even have a clue what Christianity or God is have reported miracles. That's my evidence.

 

Sin has existed in the form of choice when God created humans, giving us the choice to do what is wrong or right.

 

Your God created humans, thus your God created sin. Further more, humans are incapable of creating anything God did not create, as your Bible states that God created humans in his mirror image, if I am not incorrect.

God created humans, humans created computers. Did God create computers? No. It's a human invention.

 

I don't think that it's random coincidence that myself and others pray for things (that's many things, plural) that soon come true. Too many things come to pass through prayer for me to disregard it as chance.

 

Those things would happen regardless of if you wished them to happen or not. I can wish to wake up alive in the morning. If I do, that is a random chance that came to pass regardless of if I prayed or not.

Try 'wishing' for something like a relative having their cancer cured or surviving osteoperosis and see if it happens. You have no way of knowing whether those things would have happened or not, and when, personally, good things seem to happen when I pray and I overall feel calmer and better about myself and others, I pray.

 

So do you think I should be punished if I killed your mother, your father, and every family and friend you ever met? If the answer is yes, then you believe in morals or at the very least, values.

 

I believe you should be punished, yes. That does not necessarily make it a moral, or a value, simply what I believe should be the consequences of your actions.

And why should my actions have a consequence? Simply because you say they should?

 

The miracles are cited above, but can you make thousands of these things happen in different places to different people, all have them coincide with a similar theme (eg, a woman appearing telling people to follow her son). Also, you can't 'make up' the fact that people have been miraculously cured. There's no way, I'm sorry.

 

Please show, and state a case (with evidence) of a person being "miraculously cured". I can have a woman appear and tell people to follow her son, that does not make me special. Nor does that mean people should follow her son.

http://www.the-highway.com/healing_TOC.html

 

"Built in," as in we all believe in them or similar morals and values. So helping others or at the very least, not hurting others is now selfish? No, selfish is hogging these for yourself. Also, many animals kill others of their own species, from preying manti to wolves, they all fight amongst themselves. However, why are humans different? Morals and values, my friend.

 

If you help someone, depending on the person, the act itself could be selfish (it is also possible that it is not selfish). The person could expect a reward from helping. Hurting someone is a selfish act.

 

We kill ourselves by fighting amongst ourselves, where are our morals and values there?

 

~John

The person could expect a reward, but usually, it doesn't happen that way. Hurting someone is a selfish act, yes, but morals are against that. You see, morals and values are against selfishness.

Edited by Finway

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Way to completely disregard miracles.

 

Those were not miracles by any definition of the word. Those were stories without evidence.

 

The fact that people prayed, and a miracle happened. The fact that a woman has appeared many times to multiple different cultures, some of which didn't even believe in God, telling them to convert. Those miracles wouldn't have happened naturally. Things like people making recoveries that have never happened before simply does not happen without divine help.

 

Those recoveries would have happened even without the prayer.

 

With the abundance of women on this Earth, the law of probability states that a woman would appear to people of different religions and/ or cultures. It is probable that many of the women would be religious. I fail to see what you are getting at.

 

Let's talk about the miraculous appearance of Fatima. A police chief in the local village was a fervent atheist until witnessing it. I'm sure his mind didn't exactly want to see a miracle occur. Also, people in other cultures who might not even have a clue what Christianity or God is have reported miracles. That's my evidence.

 

People have reported seeing Dragons, that does not make it true.

 

God created humans, humans created computers. Did God create computers? No. It's a human invention.

 

God created all things through us (I believe that is a passage in the Bible). Thus, if you believe the Christian logic, God created computers.

 

Try 'wishing' for something like a relative having their cancer cured or surviving osteoporosis and see if it happens. You have no way of knowing whether those things would have happened or not, and when, personally, good things seem to happen when I pray and I overall feel calmer and better about myself and others, I pray.

 

Wishing does not make things happen. Hard work does. Prayer changes nothing, hard work does.

 

And why should my actions have a consequence? Simply because you say they should?

 

Why should they not have consequences?

 

The actions in question should have consequences so as to serve as an example to the rest of the population what will happen if you committed said actions.

 

 

From what I read ( I skimmed through the first two pages): this has no evidence, and is nothing but a story.

 

The person could expect a reward, but usually, it doesn't happen that way. Hurting someone is a selfish act, yes, but morals are against that. You see, morals and values are against selfishness.

 

Morals are not against anything, they cannot think, or feel, nor are they self-aware.

 

Our view (and probably shared morals) are the same on an issue, thus, our morals are the same. If our views (and thus our morals) differ on a subject, so do our opinions, and our morals.

 

~John

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You can not say something doesn't exist because there is no evidence it does exist.

 

Wherein the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster affirm their existence.

 

 

Which was precisely the point I made in my post which seems to have been deleted. Thanks to whomever complained about it. It's nice to see that those who's religion preaches tolerance, isn't very tolerant of other people's religion.

 

Her Pinkness (blessed be her hooves) raptures socks and replaces them with hangers, thus proving her own existence.

 

Apparently, *certain* people don't appreciate a god who can do that.

 

I think they're jealous!

 

>.<

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'Her Pinkness (blessed be her hooves) raptures socks and replaces them with hangers, thus proving her own existence.

 

Apparently, *certain* people don't appreciate a god who can do that.

 

I think they're jealous!'

 

Now I totally dont get that I think that it's a good thing that you can't prove that God exist and vice versa the world dont need any more chaos

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That's just a line of thinking I cannot agree with. God is just a vague and metaphysical enough concept-- and we do not yet understand everything about the world around us -- that it cannot be said for absolute certainty that he does not exist.

 

If God existed, there would be evidence. There is no evidence, thus, God does not exist.

For much of this thread I've been giving explanations on a God that would not have any sure evidence toward its existence due to its nature of existing outside of time and space, and the fact that it really doesn't intervene in human matters.

(I suppose that does not define as "God" for some people.) That doesn't mean he does exist, I'm just saying it's impossible to know for sure.

 

I don't think that kind of thinking is wrong or anything, saying something doesn't exist if it has no empirical evidence is fine. But a while back you could have said "The Giant Squid does not exist", but then they started washing up on the beach. (not the best example, I'm sure there are better...) For now you can say there is no God, but it's not as if there's no possibility that that could be debunked if somehow proof were to come up.

 

There have been specimens of the Giant Squid washed up on beaches populated by humans for as long as human kind as been living near the ocean where the Giant Squid is. There has not been a documented case until around 100 years ago (if memory serves).

 

We have evidence to support the Giant squid (both video of a live one, and pictures of dead ones). We have no evidence to support God. Thus, God does not exist.

 

Also, unlike the Giant squid (one that was reported in stories for centuries), the idea of one God-religions post-dates multi-God religions.

I wasn't referring to any human documented God. I'm quite certain none of those exist, not any more than Saradomin, Guthix, or Zamorak exist.

That wasn't the best example I could've used. Like, some people say there are no sentient aliens with interstellar technology, or any sentient aliens at all, simply because there is no proof of them. But what if one day they were to appear publicly? (which I think will happen once we advance to a certain point and get our act together) There would be no doubt they existed then because they would have confirmed it.

My point is that there are things that have had no evidence of their existence before, and have had evidence pop up later. It could happen with God if it exists.

 

The "Who created God" paradox can be solved by God existing outside of time. You get into kind of mind screw territory here. But I think, if God does exist, It's a total mind screw to behold. An Eldridge Abomination in the purest sense of the word, regardless of Its personality.

 

This is a opinion put up when people lack any evidence to support the existence of God.

I wasn't trying to support God's existence per se. What I was doing is giving an example of why God is unknowable if it exists at all and why there would be no conclusive evidence to point to it. It may not be a fact, but it's an example. I suppose you could say the same for the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but the difference is the Unicorn is claimed to be tangible and of this Earth.

 

Probably the only way we'll ever find out if God exists or not in our lifetimes is at the end of our lifetimes. When we die, we'll either shut off or discover that there is an afterlife. The former may be more likely, but if the latter happens then we may be able to find out for sure whether or not there is a God. Either way, there's no bringing that info back. >.<

 

There is a reason why one cannot bring back that info, there is no after-life. Once you are dead, you are dead, gone, non existing. Because people are scared of dieing (their ego's do not let them believe that once they die, they are gone), they invent God, or many Gods that "take them in" once they die. So that they can live forever.

Now how do you know that? You haven't been dead. I think it's quite a bit more likely that there is no afterlife, but it's far from a guarantee. If the afterlife exists it is another universe outside this one entirely, making it impossible to come back.

Belief in afterlife is harmless anyway. As long as you believe in a neutral one that punishes/rewards nothing, it doesn't complicate your life. If there is none, then you'll be too dead to be sad about it.

 

There is proof that God has existed, yet I think there is more proof for the fact God doesn't exist. However, you can't declare something doesn't exists if you have no fact it doesn't, the same way you can't declare something exists.

 

I can declare, and prove, that I do not have an invisible 6th finger. The reason for this is simple, I have no evidence to show that I have an invisible 6th finger.

The difference again being that the claim of there being an invisible 6th finger is that it is claimed to be tangible and of this world.

Plus there's something kind of like that. Phantom limb syndrome. The limb doesn't actually exist, and has been explained, but it sure feels like it. ... well, it usually only happens with limbs that used to exist but still.

 

You can not say something doesn't exist because there is no evidence it does exist.

 

There is no proof that I do not have a 6th finger on both of my hands. It is irrelevant that I cannot see it, it is only relevant that there is no scientific proof that can prove that I do not have an invisible 6th finger on both of my hands.

 

You cannot disprove that I do not have an invisible 6th finger on both of my hands. It is only logical to conclude, based upon the evidence, however, that I do not have a invisible 6th finger on either of my hands. It is only logical to conclude that God does not exist, based upon the evidence that God does not exist.

Science doesn't know everything. As I've said before, something that was once unproved can be proven at some point in the future. For example, for now we say there's no life on Mars. That's likely to be true. However, if all of a sudden we start digging and find subterranean domes inhabited by said Martians, then... well, yeah.

Or, more realistically, if we were to find liquid water with active microbes swimming around in it, or possibly small visible organisms.

Either way, life on Mars would be proven. Though I suppose the former would be more like "Life IN Mars".

Beyond the giant squid, I've only been using hypothetical situations because history is probably my worst topic. I wouldn't be able to come up with anything that has actually happened.

 

I do think of any of the ridiculously humanized documented Gods existed then there would be mountains of evidence. But there is none. But this is not the case for something vague or alien like a Deist God.

Edited by Superkid711

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'Her Pinkness (blessed be her hooves) raptures socks and replaces them with hangers, thus proving her own existence.

 

Apparently, *certain* people don't appreciate a god who can do that.

 

I think they're jealous!'

 

Now I totally dont get that I think that it's a good thing that you can't prove that God exist and vice versa the world dont need any more chaos

 

Interesting. I find it much more reassuring to have physical proof that my god exists. This way, life is far less confusing to me.

 

When things happen that I cannot explain, I can say: “It is the will of Her Pinkness”, and then push forward without having to give it any more thought.

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'Her Pinkness (blessed be her hooves) raptures socks and replaces them with hangers, thus proving her own existence.

 

Apparently, *certain* people don't appreciate a god who can do that.

 

I think they're jealous!'

 

Now I totally dont get that I think that it's a good thing that you can't prove that God exist and vice versa the world dont need any more chaos

 

Interesting. I find it much more reassuring to have physical proof that my god exists. This way, life is far less confusing to me.

 

When things happen that I cannot explain, I can say: “It is the will of Her Pinkness”, and then push forward without having to give it any more thought.

 

That is a good point, but how long can you go along blissfully believing that the world is in the terrible state it is simply because it's 'Her Pinkness's' will. Human nature is to want to know the answer, any answer, but particularly the answers to life's more pressing questions. You can go on blissfully as long as you aren't the object of Her Pinkness's wrath, but when Her Pinkness deigns to visit some catastrophe on your life than do you respond to Her Pinkness angrily? repentantly? incredulously? do you give up hope in Her Pinkness (whatever that hope may be...)? One thing that can be pretty much guaranteed from human nature is that you will not simply go on blissfully not noticing the terrible things happening to you.

The problem with terrible things being Her Pinkness's will is that people would tend to wonder why Her Pinkness would go to the trouble of causing trouble. Doesn't Her Pinkness have something better to do? I've been a good person, I say my prayers and give money to the beggar on the corner, why is Her Pinkness doing this?

When questions like that come into play and the only answer you have is that 'it's Her Pinkness's will,' well human nature is generally not satisfied with that though it's very good at tricking itself into thinking it.

The fact that there is good in the world (and I hope we're not arguing here whether good and bad exist...) poses an interesting paradox.

Why is there good? Because humans have the capability to be good.

Is being good the natural thing to do? In nature animals don't seem to be either good or bad, they follow their instincts and eventually die. As far as we know they don't care, they just exist. Thus it seems that being good isn't natural, at least from looking at nature as a whole, self preservation and instinct are natural.

If being good is not natural (and being good can be simply defined as going out of your way to help someone else) than why is anyone ever good? Possibility 1) Something went wrong in evolution along the way and broke it's perfectly random system, making a species that defies natural selection and doesn't live on the same terms as the rest of nature. Possibility 2) Some outside force specifically gave humans the ability to do good (and evil).

Now I could go on for hours about how terribly incorrect and nonscientific evolution is but I'll spare you.. for now. The point is that the two current answers that we have for life are the possible answers for whether God exists, it just depend on which you choose obviously.

 

If those are the only two answers (and I can't think of any others...) and I'm obviously trying to prove that God does exist, than my first and possibly only step to logically make God the only choice is to eliminate evolution. That is a long and complicated process (as I've stated before...) but, and yes I know this point to driven in to the point of overkill but it's really the best point ever... There is an answer to where God came from, and there is the fact that by the rules which now govern the universe (and we assume have always governed the universe) the universe coming into existence from a preexisting item (namely the spec from which the Big Bang is supposed to have occurred) is an impossibility. And the answer to where God came from, tada! He didn't, He doesn't exist via any means we know and I don't know if we ever will (even when we meet him), He exists outside of all the dimensions and rules that we know.

 

Any loopholes in that? I wanna know so I can fix them ;}

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Way to completely disregard miracles.

 

Those were not miracles by any definition of the word. Those were stories without evidence.

Testimonies of miracles are evidence of miracles.

 

The fact that people prayed, and a miracle happened. The fact that a woman has appeared many times to multiple different cultures, some of which didn't even believe in God, telling them to convert. Those miracles wouldn't have happened naturally. Things like people making recoveries that have never happened before simply does not happen without divine help.

 

Those recoveries would have happened even without the prayer.

 

With the abundance of women on this Earth, the law of probability states that a woman would appear to people of different religions and/ or cultures. It is probable that many of the women would be religious. I fail to see what you are getting at.

Again, that's doubtful. It's too coincidential that when a person prays for something that that person seems to be cured or healed faster than usual or something unexpectedly good happens. It's happened to me so many times that I firmly believe it can't be coincidence.

 

A woman appearing wearing very similar clothing, with a child in her arms, levitating, and sayings something very similar to what other appearances have said isn't something that you'd expect.

 

Let's talk about the miraculous appearance of Fatima. A police chief in the local village was a fervent atheist until witnessing it. I'm sure his mind didn't exactly want to see a miracle occur. Also, people in other cultures who might not even have a clue what Christianity or God is have reported miracles. That's my evidence.

 

People have reported seeing Dragons, that does not make it true.

But have thousands upon thousands of people witnessed a dragon very close, given their testimonies and all agreed on a similar theme or similar things that the dragon said? Not to mention that on some cases, hundreds or even thousands of people have witnessed it at the same time.

 

God created humans, humans created computers. Did God create computers? No. It's a human invention.

 

God created all things through us (I believe that is a passage in the Bible). Thus, if you believe the Christian logic, God created computers.

I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to see that passage. I can believe God created the materials we make computers out of, and God gave us a choice to sin or to do good, which is something that we chose ourselves, just like God gave us the choice of what to do with the materials that computers are made of.

 

Try 'wishing' for something like a relative having their cancer cured or surviving osteoporosis and see if it happens. You have no way of knowing whether those things would have happened or not, and when, personally, good things seem to happen when I pray and I overall feel calmer and better about myself and others, I pray.

 

Wishing does not make things happen. Hard work does. Prayer changes nothing, hard work does.

As hard as I work in school or anywhere, I don't think it could've cured a very close person to me of breast cancer.

 

And why should my actions have a consequence? Simply because you say they should?

 

Why should they not have consequences?

 

The actions in question should have consequences so as to serve as an example to the rest of the population what will happen if you committed said actions.

In a debate, you need to prove the positive, since the negative is impossible to prove (in other words, saying that first statement is like saying "prove there isn't a God," it just doesn't work that way). So there shouldn't be consequences until you prove that there should be.

 

Why should there be an example? Why shouldn't people be able to do what we want when we want how we want and etc.? After all, what right do you have to tell me what to do?

 

 

From what I read ( I skimmed through the first two pages): this has no evidence, and is nothing but a story.

Stories are testimonies of witnesses, thus evidence. I'll try to find a link with pictures or something, and here's some more stories of miracles:

http://www.miracleshealing.com/story_frameset.htm (not very official, but meh >.< )

http://www.goodnewsblog.com/2008/05/08/mir...tory-of-healing

http://www.mswm.org/miracles.allanosoupe.htm (only one here, I believe)

 

The person could expect a reward, but usually, it doesn't happen that way. Hurting someone is a selfish act, yes, but morals are against that. You see, morals and values are against selfishness.

 

Morals are not against anything, they cannot think, or feel, nor are they self-aware.

 

Our view (and probably shared morals) are the same on an issue, thus, our morals are the same. If our views (and thus our morals) differ on a subject, so do our opinions, and our morals.

 

~John

Then what keeps you from going on a rampage, killing everyone you know? Also, why do you believe certain actions (stealing, murder, etc.) should have consequences? Morals may vary from people to people, but the vast majority of people agree on the vast majority of morals. That's too coincidential to be coincidence.

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To me the proof of a supreme being is hidden in mathematics.

 

How come the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its radius is such a conventient multpile of the ratio between the area of a circle and its radius?

 

 

Theres just no good reason for it to be so. For me that indicates some kind of purposeful architect behind it.

 

Now I understand that for other people that sort of reasoning is not enough, and fair play to them, they are welcome to look at that logic and say, well that doesnt prove it to me, I just think for myself, thats a key.

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You can not say something doesn't exist because there is no evidence it does exist.

 

Wherein the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster affirm their existence.

I'm not saying it means they exist. But merely you can't prove it doesn't exist based upon the facts that there is no evidence it exists.

 

Say I own the exclusive and rare; Miss Lu-los Magical Flying right footed pale pink slipper with etc red and gold pom pom and golden thread. There is no evidence that item exists, yet you can not say it does not exist based upon that.

 

It works vice versa. You can't say something exists because there's no evidence it doesn't exist.

 

~Magical

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To me the proof of a supreme being is hidden in mathematics.

 

How come the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its radius is such a conventient multpile of the ratio between the area of a circle and its radius?

 

 

Theres just no good reason for it to be so. For me that indicates some kind of purposeful architect behind it.

 

Now I understand that for other people that sort of reasoning is not enough, and fair play to them, they are welcome to look at that logic and say, well that doesnt prove it to me, I just think for myself, thats a key.

Mathematics are fictional. They all depend on the numbering system.

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To me the proof of a supreme being is hidden in mathematics.

 

How come the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its radius is such a conventient multpile of the ratio between the area of a circle and its radius?

 

 

Theres just no good reason for it to be so. For me that indicates some kind of purposeful architect behind it.

 

Now I understand that for other people that sort of reasoning is not enough, and fair play to them, they are welcome to look at that logic and say, well that doesnt prove it to me, I just think for myself, thats a key.

Mathematics are fictional. They all depend on the numbering system.

 

true, mathematics is only invented by humans for their own convienince

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'Her Pinkness (blessed be her hooves) raptures socks and replaces them with hangers, thus proving her own existence.

 

Apparently, *certain* people don't appreciate a god who can do that.

 

I think they're jealous!'

 

Now I totally dont get that I think that it's a good thing that you can't prove that God exist and vice versa the world dont need any more chaos

 

Interesting. I find it much more reassuring to have physical proof that my god exists. This way, life is far less confusing to me.

 

When things happen that I cannot explain, I can say: “It is the will of Her Pinkness”, and then push forward without having to give it any more thought.

 

That is a good point, but how long can you go along blissfully believing that the world is in the terrible state it is simply because it's 'Her Pinkness's' will.

 

Apparently, indefinitely.

 

Human nature is to want to know the answer, any answer, but particularly the answers to life's more pressing questions.

 

We do - it’s 42.

 

You can go on blissfully as long as you aren't the object of Her Pinkness's wrath, but when Her Pinkness deigns to visit some catastrophe on your life than do you respond to Her Pinkness angrily? repentantly? incredulously?

 

My preferred response is to tilt my head to one side like Scooby Doo, and go “Ruh”?

 

Do you give up hope in Her Pinkness (whatever that hope may be...)?

 

Never.

 

One thing that can be pretty much guaranteed from human nature is that you will not simply go on blissfully not noticing the terrible things happening to you.

 

No – I’d be pretty much aware of anything “terrible” happening to me.

 

 

The problem with terrible things being Her Pinkness's will is that people would tend to wonder why Her Pinkness would go to the trouble of causing trouble. Doesn't Her Pinkness have something better to do? I've been a good person, I say my prayers and give money to the beggar on the corner, why is Her Pinkness doing this?

 

Because she moves in mysterious ways?

 

When questions like that come into play and the only answer you have is that 'it's Her Pinkness's will,' well human nature is generally not satisfied with that though it's very good at tricking itself into thinking it.

 

Did you know that, when you pull a sock from your dryer and there’s a hole it, that hole was caused by Her Pinkness’s horn?

 

The fact that there is good in the world (and I hope we're not arguing here whether good and bad exist...) poses an interesting paradox.

 

There is neither good nor bad. There are only socially acceptable, and unacceptable, norms imposed by society to protect the “haves” from the “have nots”.

 

Why is there good? Because humans have the capability to be good.

 

Again – there is no good. Humanity doesn’t do “good”. They merely weigh the possibilities between crossing that line between acceptable and unacceptable norms against the probability of being caught, and thereafter receiving punishment therefor.

 

Is being good the natural thing to do?

 

No. Self-preservation is “natural”. The desire to avoid pain (punishment) is natural.

 

If being good is not natural (and being good can be simply defined as going out of your way to help someone else) than why is anyone ever good?

 

No one goes out of their way to “be good” – there’s no such thing as a “free lunch”. Ultimately, everyone wants something.

 

Possibility 1) Something went wrong in evolution along the way and broke it's perfectly random system, making a species that defies natural selection and doesn't live on the same terms as the rest of nature. Possibility 2) Some outside force specifically gave humans the ability to do good (and evil).

 

Or - contrarily - humanity acts in the manner in which it behaves (“good”) through learned behaviour, due to generation after generation receiving heaps of both positive and negative reinforcement, that caused it to learn that, to commit certain acts, leads to certain consequences which, if caught, are painful and damaging to one’s person?

 

Amongst the animals, one can see this same social construct – there’s no good or evil within wolf packs or ape colonies – however, these similar social orders operate in precisely the same manner.

 

Now I could go on for hours about how terribly incorrect and nonscientific evolution is but I'll spare you.. for now.

 

Oh – please do. It should prove very entertaining.

 

.. and while you’re at it, please likewise provide the scientific proof for “god did it”.

 

The point is that the two current answers that we have for life are the possible answers for whether God exists, it just depend on which you choose obviously.

 

Or, again, they could be indicative that humanity banded together into somewhat cohesive groups, setting out, over generation after generation, what patterns of behaviour are acceptable and unacceptable, in order to protect the property of collective group – and more particular of those within the collective group possessing MORE property than the others, and thereafter, they applied a spirituality thereto, in order to “cement” this social order, and to protect those who had more of the property from those who have less of it.

 

If those are the only two answers (and I can't think of any others...) and I'm obviously trying to prove that God does exist, than my first and possibly only step to logically make God the only choice is to eliminate evolution.

 

Wow! You’re able to leap logic in a single bound! It’s like “Superman”!

 

See – this is the problem with people like you. You assume that good and evil existed right from the “get go”, therefore you immediate assume that these concepts came from “god”.

 

You god created “good” and “evil”.

 

They cannot be “man-made” constructs, can they? Just because socially acceptable norms change from generation to generation, and as such “good” and “evil” likewise change, that means that these concepts cannot “evolve”, can they? They must be absolutes, carved in stone, like Moses’ commandments?

 

>.<

 

That is a long and complicated process (as I've stated before...) but, and yes I know this point to driven in to the point of overkill but it's really the best point ever... There is an answer to where God came from, and there is the fact that by the rules which now govern the universe (and we assume have always governed the universe) the universe coming into existence from a preexisting item (namely the spec from which the Big Bang is supposed to have occurred) is an impossibility.

 

The Big Bang is an impossiblity?

 

[*Scooby Doo heald tilt*] Ruh?

 

You’re not serious.

 

And the answer to where God came from, tada! He didn't, He doesn't exist via any means we know and I don't know if we ever will (even when we meet him), He exists outside of all the dimensions and rules that we know.

 

Ah - so therefore, because you cannot explain god, he must exist ...

 

Wow. Just. Wow.

 

That’s like David Copperfield “wow”.

 

You plucked that right out of thin air and pretended it was real.

 

Any loopholes in that? I wanna know so I can fix them ;}

 

Yes - plenty, and all of them large enough to drive a truck through, too.

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Creation. Not even the pope believes in that anymore. Creation also includes Jerusalem being the center of a flat circle with everflowing water called Earth. That's nice. And the moon is a cube.

 

Evolution is no theory. Bones alone prove enough. Dead people won't lie.

Edited by lilshu

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To me the proof of a supreme being is hidden in mathematics.

 

How come the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its radius is such a conventient multpile of the ratio between the area of a circle and its radius?

 

 

Theres just no good reason for it to be so. For me that indicates some kind of purposeful architect behind it.

 

Now I understand that for other people that sort of reasoning is not enough, and fair play to them, they are welcome to look at that logic and say, well that doesnt prove it to me, I just think for myself, thats a key.

 

Hmm - could it be that, when humanity was working out the various formulas to explain such processes of mathematics, they chose to use numeric sequences that worked out to nice even numbers?

 

Mathematics is little more than a "pure" form of philosophical thought -- a sequence of numbers -- all created by mankind to express logic.

 

God doesn't "do" math -- a simple reading of the Qu'ran is proof of that ...

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To me the proof of a supreme being is hidden in mathematics.

 

How come the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its radius is such a conventient multpile of the ratio between the area of a circle and its radius?

 

 

Theres just no good reason for it to be so. For me that indicates some kind of purposeful architect behind it.

 

Now I understand that for other people that sort of reasoning is not enough, and fair play to them, they are welcome to look at that logic and say, well that doesnt prove it to me, I just think for myself, thats a key.

Mathematics are fictional. They all depend on the numbering system.

 

true, mathematics is only invented by humans for their own convienince

Im sorry but thats just not true, those ratios remain true no matter what numbering system you use.

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Why are people such idiots?

 

Creation. Not even the pope believes in that anymore. Creation also includes Jerusalem being the center of a flat circle with everflowing water called Earth. That's nice. And the moon is a cube.

 

Evolution is no theory. Bones alone prove enough. Dead people won't lie.

Actually, creation is just the belief that God created everything. At least in my book. >.<

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Mmm..I once hear a explanation of how we can prove that God exist. Certainly not a Western God (long white beard, power to make almost everything interfering normal human lives, etc, etc)

 

Every cause have an effect and every effect has a cause, if we follow the chain of causes and effects we can get the original cause (this can be a little particle, or even our minds). This original cause is called by us God. (here ends the explanation I hear, however it was longer)

 

If we think that is only a particle it cant make anything for us, if we think that is our mind we can understand the phenomenon of pray (a strong thought can make difference, some people can recover health after a extremely risky operations, accidents, etc)

 

I prefer that is our mind, but not our brain and also not our personal mind; I think something like the mind of the (entire) humanity. If God is that, it can be either good or evil as people who conforms humanity is better or not, also this God can certainly make less people born with problems, make people live better and certainly make miracles. All depends if we people are better or not.

(yes, I actually continues trusting in the humankind)

 

(If my spelling and grammar is awful, please pardon my it isnt my first language and Im still trying to make it better >.<

(And also thge proof of God is only the first and second paragraph, 3º and fourth are only my thoughts of God)

 

 

----Edd eX-_--_---_----

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