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Sgt.Pepper

Cash For Clunkers

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Okay

 

So, in between ObamaWatch and countdown to all important Beer Summits, you may have seen on your TV commercials advertising the "cash for clunkers" program the Federal Government is spending billions of dollars on.

 

Just in case you are not aware of the program, part of the artificial stimulus package that was passed that is messing up our economy is that the federal government has offered $3500-$4500 to people who turn in their used "clunkers" to the federal government in order to purchase a new car from the General Government Motor Company, and other cars a part of its fleet such as Pontiac and Chevrolet.

 

Firstly, this was a bad idea, because the government is crushing cars and exporting the materials abroad (China) for money. So, we are sending China raw materials for them to re-manufacture into products they'll end up selling back to us at a higher price. Also, this is declining the number of used cars on the market for citizens to purchase, as well as used parts dealers who will not be aloud to purchase the engines and driveshafts of these cars-to-be-crushed to resale or even put into their own cars for sale.

 

 

Secondly, this package was planned out by the brilliant idiots running our government to last for 4 months; they've already run out of money in the first 4 days. Poor planning by the government for an even more pathetic program. So, they are already discussing continuing the program and increasing funding for it. Any red flags coming up in anyone's mind yet?

 

And lastly, possibly the most alarming piece of evidence of the whole program comes from the government's program website www.cars.gov, in their privacy agreement when you log in to the site to turn in your old car:

 

"This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Government."

-www.cars.gov

 

In other words, the federal government is stating by using this bogus program they've created, they are reserving the right to repossess your computer if any legal manner is to come up. The federal government is imposing the right to own your computer and all information on it. So, all the people who criticized Bush for overstepping his bounds when it came to wiretapping phone calls, where are they now when Obama is doing the same crime but to a greater degree?

 

Discuss.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

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To be honest, either way I think we were getting screwed over.

 

Right now, I think we're getting screwed over in the 1984 form, with McCain I think we'd be getting screwed over in the eternal war form.

 

I didn't vote for either if you're wondering. I voted for the Independent who wasn't Nadar.

 

All the laws they are trying to get through now will create a 1984ish society >_>. People are too busy watching Dancing With the Stars or American Idol too actually care.

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To be honest, either way I think we were getting screwed over.

 

Right now, I think we're getting screwed over in the 1984 form, with McCain I think we'd be getting screwed over in the eternal war form.

 

 

I think McCain would have received some pressure from congress to end the war in Iraq, so I have more faith that he would have gotten that deal done while still actually help the economy than what Obama is dong.

 

I didn't vote for either if you're wondering. I voted for the Independent who wasn't Nadar.

 

 

I would have voted for Ron Paul if I could have been age eligible to be honest.

 

All the laws they are trying to get through now will create a 1984ish society >_>. People are too busy watching Dancing With the Stars or American Idol too actually care.

 

It's a scary fact, but that is what American society has stooped to.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

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"This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Government."

-www.cars.gov

 

In other words, the federal government is stating by using this bogus program they've created, they are reserving the right to repossess your computer if any legal manner is to come up. The federal government is imposing the right to own your computer and all information on it. So, all the people who criticized Bush for overstepping his bounds when it came to wiretapping phone calls, where are they now when Obama is doing the same crime but to a greater degree?

 

Discuss.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

 

People are idiots with insanely obvious double standards. When Dubya is doing it, it's all bad but when the Messiah does it it's a merciful handout.

 

However, it could be said that relinquishing the right of ownership is purely voluntary in this situation. Take me for example: I don't need a new car, so it wont be as much of a problem for me. If left unbridled then yes, this might escalate and spread to other institutions, but for right now it's not that bad.

 

For the record, I don't agree with this program at all as it's government intervention in the market. They are manipulating the course of business and giving people money for things they may have not been able to afford beforehand. I feel that we aren't making any progress here - spending beyond our means is a major factor into why we go into this economic mess, and this is very likely to help usher us as a whole back into that habit.

 

I also am quite displeased at the fact that my tax dollars (yes mine, in fact I got screwed by Uncle Sam last week) are going to fund someone else's car purchase. 3000-4000 dollars is a HUGE discount. Just last month I had to do A LOT of research and price negotiation to get the car I drive now. In the end I was only able to save myself 2500 dollars because of how strapped the auto market is right now. Here's the kicker: most people will be paying for the majority of their price tag with a loan, while I paid full cash for my car. If anyone should have gotten a price relief in that situation (even though I don't support this), I feel that it should have been me.

 

I can't help but wonder if the money dedicated towards this couldn't have been used somewhere else - the amount required for this program would likely make a huge dent in a problem elsewhere (if the government decided to spend it, which they could hold off on in my opinion). All in all, I feel like this program is a complete and utter failure.

Edited by Redicaluss

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In other words, the federal government is stating by using this bogus program they've created, they are reserving the right to repossess your computer if any legal manner is to come up. The federal government is imposing the right to own your computer and all information on it. So, all the people who criticized Bush for overstepping his bounds when it came to wiretapping phone calls, where are they now when Obama is doing the same crime but to a greater degree?

 

I don't think you understand what that actually means at all.

 

A vehicle is required in certain zones with little to no public transportation. Making it more affordable to get a car which you would need to go to work, go buy food, etc. etc. is completely fine. Someone shouldn't have to make the choice between being able to get to work or not having any money to pay bills.

 

Firstly, this was a bad idea, because the government is crushing cars and exporting the materials abroad (China) for money. So, we are sending China raw materials for them to re-manufacture into products they'll end up selling back to us at a higher price. Also, this is declining the number of used cars on the market for citizens to purchase, as well as used parts dealers who will not be aloud to purchase the engines and driveshafts of these cars-to-be-crushed to resale or even put into their own cars for sale.

 

Obviously they are going to sell their goods for more than the costs of the raw materials. Expecting them not to is ridiculous at best.

 

I also am quite displeased at the fact that my tax dollars (yes mine, in fact I got screwed by Uncle Sam last week) are going to fund someone else's car purchase. 3000-4000 dollars is a HUGE discount. Just last month I had to do A LOT of research and price negotiation to get the car I drive now. In the end I was only able to save myself 2500 dollars because of how strapped the auto market is right now. Here's the kicker: most people will be paying for the majority of their price tag with a loan, while I paid full cash for my car. If anyone should have gotten a price relief in that situation (even though I don't support this), I feel that it should have been me.

 

Unless you have a totaled car to turn in you wouldn't get that discount which means it wouldn't be a problem for you anyway. Not to mention that if you could pay for it in cash you have enough to afford it. A car is a neccesity in rural and suburban areas and a program which lets people get one at a cheaper price if they turn in their old trashed one is a good thing.

 

Oh and one thing you forgot to mention is that in order to qualify for this you need to turn in a car with bad gas efficiency and buy one that does at least 4 more miles per gallon for $3,500 credit or 10 miles per gallon more for the full $4,500 credit. Meaning this is also an environmental bill just as much as it is to help people who can't afford cars.

Edited by Raz

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"This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Government."

-www.cars.gov

 

In other words, the federal government is stating by using this bogus program they've created, they are reserving the right to repossess your computer if any legal manner is to come up. The federal government is imposing the right to own your computer and all information on it. So, all the people who criticized Bush for overstepping his bounds when it came to wiretapping phone calls, where are they now when Obama is doing the same crime but to a greater degree?

 

Discuss.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

 

People are idiots with insanely obvious double standards. When Dubya is doing it, it's all bad but when the Messiah does it it's a merciful handout.

 

However, it could be said that relinquishing the right of ownership is purely voluntary in this situation. Take me for example: I don't need a new car, so it wont be as much of a problem for me. If left unbridled then yes, this might escalate and spread to other institutions, but for right now it's not that bad.

 

For the record, I don't agree with this program at all as it's government intervention in the market. They are manipulating the course of business and giving people money for things they may have not been able to afford beforehand. I feel that we aren't making any progress here - spending beyond our means is a major factor into why we go into this economic mess, and this is very likely to help usher us as a whole back into that habit.

 

I also am quite displeased at the fact that my tax dollars (yes mine, in fact I got screwed by Uncle Sam last week) are going to fund someone else's car purchase. 3000-4000 dollars is a HUGE discount. Just last month I had to do A LOT of research and price negotiation to get the car I drive now. In the end I was only able to save myself 2500 dollars because of how strapped the auto market is right now. Here's the kicker: most people will be paying for the majority of their price tag with a loan, while I paid full cash for my car. If anyone should have gotten a price relief in that situation (even though I don't support this), I feel that it should have been me.

 

I can't help but wonder if the money dedicated towards this couldn't have been used somewhere else - the amount required for this program would likely make a huge dent in a problem elsewhere (if the government decided to spend it, which they could hold off on in my opinion). All in all, I feel like this program is a complete and utter failure.

 

OK, your tax dollars are going mostly to the environment.

 

Instead of selling their 10 mpg car to the dealer and letting it stay on the market, they can disable it and still get the money that they would've gotten selling the car. When they use it to buy a more fuel-efficient car, they are helping the environment by reducing their gas usage/emissions.

Edited by DaNoobPro1337

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Can someone use a viable argument other than "I don't want to be paying for someone else's car?" I get it, you're greedy.

They are manipulating the course of business and giving people money for things they may have not been able to afford beforehand. I feel that we aren't making any progress here - spending beyond our means is a major factor into why we go into this economic mess, and this is very likely to help usher us as a whole back into that habit.

 

If there wasn't any government intervention, we would be deeper in this mess. Now the GDP is slowly declining, and perhaps, we'll be out of this recession in 2010.

 

In the end I was only able to save myself 2500 dollars because of how strapped the auto market is right now. Here's the kicker: most people will be paying for the majority of their price tag with a loan, while I paid full cash for my car. If anyone should have gotten a price relief in that situation (even though I don't support this), I feel that it should have been me.

 

Tell me how much you spent. Put that into perspective.

 

I'm not even going to reply to Sgt. because I really can't take you seriously.

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Can someone use a viable argument other than "I don't want to be paying for someone else's car?" I get it, you're greedy.

Is this seriously what America has come to? Where not wanting to forceabally give up money to the government means you are greedy?

 

"If there wasn't any government intervention, we would be deeper in this mess. Now the GDP is slowly declining, and perhaps, we'll be out of this recession in 2010."

 

Wrong, government intervention in the economy is something we definately do NOT need! It has been proved time and time again that when the government doesn't get itself involved too much in the economy, innovation and jobs thrive.

Let's just look at Japan during the 90's, or what is known there as "the lost decade" they were in a recession for years, and throughout the recession the Japanese government kept using stimuluses and other programs similar to what we are now doing, all of which failed for the Japanese.

I highly doubt we will be out of this recession in 2010, and if we are prepare to be in yet another one again in a few years thanks to the federal reserve and other government intervention.

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"This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Government."

-www.cars.gov

 

In other words, the federal government is stating by using this bogus program they've created, they are reserving the right to repossess your computer if any legal manner is to come up. The federal government is imposing the right to own your computer and all information on it. So, all the people who criticized Bush for overstepping his bounds when it came to wiretapping phone calls, where are they now when Obama is doing the same crime but to a greater degree?

 

Discuss.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

It's not like it's permanently theirs, only when it's logged onto the system, for legal reasons.

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Could you provide a link to the page where you got the quote, or tell me how to get to it? I'm trying to figure it out but this site's confusing. Thanks

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I also am quite displeased at the fact that my tax dollars (yes mine, in fact I got screwed by Uncle Sam last week) are going to fund someone else's car purchase. 3000-4000 dollars is a HUGE discount. Just last month I had to do A LOT of research and price negotiation to get the car I drive now. In the end I was only able to save myself 2500 dollars because of how strapped the auto market is right now. Here's the kicker: most people will be paying for the majority of their price tag with a loan, while I paid full cash for my car. If anyone should have gotten a price relief in that situation (even though I don't support this), I feel that it should have been me.

 

Unless you have a totaled car to turn in you wouldn't get that discount which means it wouldn't be a problem for you anyway. Not to mention that if you could pay for it in cash you have enough to afford it. A car is a neccesity in rural and suburban areas and a program which lets people get one at a cheaper price if they turn in their old trashed one is a good thing.

 

Oh and one thing you forgot to mention is that in order to qualify for this you need to turn in a car with bad gas efficiency and buy one that does at least 4 more miles per gallon for $3,500 credit or 10 miles per gallon more for the full $4,500 credit. Meaning this is also an environmental bill just as much as it is to help people who can't afford cars.

 

1) I don't know where you heard that you need a totaled car, that's preposterous.

2) I was able to pay in cash because I saved for it, unlike what the majority of Americans do.

3) I live in a suburban area so I understand the necessity of a car. However, getting a car for a lower price with your old car is what the previously established trade-ins were all about.

4) If I wanted to help the environment with my money (which I do) I would donate to environmental agencies (which I do also).

 

Definition, how DARE you call me greedy? I'm fine with helping people, but I would rather do it for my own causes and with an amount I am comfortable and willing to pay. I donate to charities quite often - I don't need the government to take my money so someone (who may or may not need/deserve a car) can buy a car.

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Definition, how DARE you call me greedy? I'm fine with helping people, but I would rather do it for my own causes and with an amount I am comfortable and willing to pay. I donate to charities quite often - I don't need the government to take my money so someone (who may or may not need/deserve a car) can buy a car.
Is this seriously what America has come to? Where not wanting to forceabally give up money to the government means you are greedy?

 

Fine, this is a poor example, especially with cars. I apologize.

 

I've come to this conclusion through the socialized medicine debate.

 

@Zon: Government intervention worked in Canada. We have the strongest banks, and the most secure economy because we have good regulation. Also, government intervention worked back in the '30s, '40s during WWII with public-private partnerships.

Edited by Definition

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1) I don't know where you heard that you need a totaled car, that's preposterous.

 

My mistake bad information.

 

2) I was able to pay in cash because I saved for it, unlike what the majority of Americans do.

 

How old are you? Do you live on your own? Pay rent/mortage? Buy your own food? If your still under the support of your parents then your situation is completely different than someone who is working full time in a low paying job.

 

3) I live in a suburban area so I understand the necessity of a car. However, getting a car for a lower price with your old car is what the previously established trade-ins were all about.

 

This way just makes it more rewarding to turn in your own car.

 

4) If I wanted to help the environment with my money (which I do) I would donate to environmental agencies (which I do also).

 

So your cool with giving your money away to charities so they can spend 20- 30% it on "administrative costs" instead of the government because the goverment will help others with it?

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I don't think you understand what that actually means at all.

 

A vehicle is required in certain zones with little to no public transportation. Making it more affordable to get a car which you would need to go to work, go buy food, etc. etc. is completely fine. Someone shouldn't have to make the choice between being able to get to work or not having any money to pay bills.

 

 

:eyebrows: If all they need is a car that will get them back and forth to work, etc., then clunker cars are exactly what they need ^_^ Especially if they need basic means of transportation, then why on earth do you think they can afford payments on newer cars? Oh wait, this is the same democratic government that allowed Fanny and Freddie to kill our economy :P

 

Obviously they are going to sell their goods for more than the costs of the raw materials. Expecting them not to is ridiculous at best.

 

Okay, so we are intentionally letting China receive more of our money?

 

Unless you have a totaled car to turn in you wouldn't get that discount which means it wouldn't be a problem for you anyway. Not to mention that if you could pay for it in cash you have enough to afford it. A car is a neccesity in rural and suburban areas and a program which lets people get one at a cheaper price if they turn in their old trashed one is a good thing.

 

The point is that these new cars are on average $10,000 more than what people will get for these old cars. Also, the government is simply lessening the demand for newer cars in the future when it would actually be natural. Two or three years from now, no one is going to be buying a new car and then the government is going to be asking "well w-t-fm8, I thought we build cars for people to buy?!" And then they'll be like "oh wait, we paid billions of dollars for people to buy newer cars than when they would normally have wanted to, and now those people who would have eventually bought cars aren't going to".

 

Oh and one thing you forgot to mention is that in order to qualify for this you need to turn in a car with bad gas efficiency and buy one that does at least 4 more miles per gallon for $3,500 credit or 10 miles per gallon more for the full $4,500 credit. Meaning this is also an environmental bill just as much as it is to help people who can't afford cars.

 

Majority of clunkers out there that are getting cashed in are going to be what the majority of these cars are, 4 door sedans, seeing how thats what the majority of people drive. So these cars are already getting around 20mpg, which is better or just as good as what they are trading in for.

 

It's not like it's permanently theirs, only when it's logged onto the system, for legal reasons.

 

It doesn't say "just while you are logged in" anywhere in that statement. Any lawyer or judge will read that and see that no where does it state that it is temporary, thus any ruling will be in favor of the federal government. Plus, think about it, why would they even need to put that in there. If this is a program they are trying to promote, why would they want rights to all information and the right to your computer where that info is?

 

Can someone use a viable argument other than "I don't want to be paying for someone else's car?" I get it, you're greedy.

 

Pay for my college pl0x. Seeing how you have no problem with it at all, when can I be expecting your check in the mail?

 

I'm not even going to reply to Sgt. because I really can't take you seriously.

 

You're asking why people don't want to pay for other people's cars, why they don't want to hand away thousands of unnecessary dollars to the federal government. I'm not sure if anyone can take you seriously.

 

~Sgt.Pepper

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Pay for my college pl0x. Seeing how you have no problem with it at all, when can I be expecting your check in the mail?

 

Only unless you pay for mine.

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It says "When logged on to the CARS system," which means that only when. Not after logging into, on when you are logged on to the system. So it's temporary, for as long as you are accessing the website. I don't know why they have that there, but I doubt you know enough about all the laws and regulations of federal websites to be able to assuredly assume conspiracy.

 

Well, I'm not crying out wolf that the federal government is going to y2k any users that log in :eyebrows: But my point is that while you are logged in, they retain the right to access any and all files on your computer, relevant to your car or not. I'm not sure if you can get anymore closer to an act of fascism than that. Seriously, where did the Constitution go? I understand it requires for a user to accept the agreement, but honestly, O-M-G.

 

 

Only unless you pay for mine.

 

Nice comeback.

 

 

~Sgt.Pepper

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Still don't know where to find the quote...

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I have no clue why people have such a issue with this. It gets inefficient cars off of the road. And your more than willing to take part of it.

 

Your going to pay taxes either way no one ever said you were entitled to say where they go...

 

And if you have a problem with it then try to not pay and see where that takes you :eyebrows:

Edited by Emo_Nemo

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I have no clue why people have such a issue with this. It gets inefficient other people's cars off of the road. And your more than willing to take part of protest it.

 

 

Your going to pay taxes either way no one ever said you were entitled to say where they go...

 

If we have reached a point in society where the people that pay taxes have no say in a government which, by definition, is for, of, and by the people, then I really don't know what else to say except wake up.

 

And if you have a problem with it then try to not pay and see where that takes you :eyebrows:

 

Yeah! Those damn patriots back in 1763 not paying those taxes on paper and tea...What morons!

 

~Sgt.Pepper

Edited by Sgt.Pepper

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I have no clue why people have such a issue with this. It gets inefficient cars off of the road. And your more than willing to take part of it.

 

Your going to pay taxes either way no one ever said you were entitled to say where they go...

 

And if you have a problem with it then try to not pay and see where that takes you :eyebrows:

 

Well, it seems that the complete damnation of America is upon us. "No taxation without representation," the very thing that we fought for 200 years ago, is now finished. You have a right to have a role in deciding where your tax dollars go. (And if you've ever noticed, half of the politicians are annoying hypocrites who care only about their coffers and votes).

 

I do agree with the inefficient cars off the road, though.

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I have no clue why people have such a issue with this. It gets inefficient other people's cars off of the road. And your more than willing to take part of protest it.

 

 

Your going to pay taxes either way no one ever said you were entitled to say where they go...

 

If we have reached a point in society where the people that pay taxes have no say in a government which, by definition, is for, of, and by the people, then I really don't know what else to say except wake up.

 

And if you have a problem with it then try to not pay and see where that takes you :eyebrows:

 

Yeah! Those damn patriots back in 1763 not paying those taxes on paper and tea...What morons!

 

~Sgt.Pepper

 

You can't trade in your car unless it gets less than 18mpg so what are you on about?

 

I have no clue why people have such a issue with this. It gets inefficient cars off of the road. And your more than willing to take part of it.

 

Your going to pay taxes either way no one ever said you were entitled to say where they go...

 

And if you have a problem with it then try to not pay and see where that takes you ^_^

 

Well, it seems that the complete damnation of America is upon us. "No taxation without representation," the very thing that we fought for 200 years ago, is now finished. You have a right to have a role in deciding where your tax dollars go. (And if you've ever noticed, half of the politicians are annoying hypocrites who care only about their coffers and votes).

 

I do agree with the inefficient cars off the road, though.

 

Then what do you propose? That we continue to pay for the damage that these cars cause to the environment with our health?

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Then what do you propose? That we continue to pay for the damage that these cars cause to the environment with our health?

 

Only like 20,000 cars were traded in nationwide, and the government spent all of the money they already dedicated to the program.

 

20,000 cars with bag gas mileage off the road out of the 143,000,000 cars that are in America. That's about 0.0001% of the cars in America (sorry if I misplaced a 0). That's like throwing a deck chair off the Titanic hoping it doesn't sink. :eyebrows:

 

Let alone the fact that China has reached 20million cars as of 2007:

http://www.impactlab.com/2007/02/16/number...hes-22-million/

 

...and is expected to increase to over 140million by 2020...:

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fSection...ticleId=2211763

 

 

So yeah, I'm sure these 20,000 cars we just crushed made a HUGE difference...

 

 

~Sgt.Pepper

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Either way, it isn't the government's job to keep inefficient cars of the road. They have better things to spend their money on(or to not spend at all, which would be the most favorable option)

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Either way, it isn't the government's job to keep inefficient cars of the road. They have better things to spend their money on(or to not spend at all, which would be the most favorable option)

 

 

It's not? Then who's job is it? Who else has the resources to do it then?

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