Illegal Immigration

[DaNoobPro1337]

20-some million people are here in the US without valid documentation. How do we deal with them, and how do we prevent more people from jumping a fence or hiding in a truck?

 

I will post my thoughts later.

Edited November 2, 2009 by DaNoobPro1337

[Mohorak]

I don't see the problem. Don't give jobs to anyone that doesn't have documentation; same to those that want to buy a house/rent an apartment.

[thepope1322]

^ Theory ^

 

In practice, you have employers who would not mind "forgetting" to check papers so they can hire a worker for $4/hour.

After all, can the illegal employee bring the employer to court on violation of labor laws?

It hurts both Americans as well as the illegal immigrants themselves.

IMO, if an illegal pays his/her taxes and is willing to learn English, they should be allowed to become naturalized citizens, but only if both requirements are met. That way, the regular guy can live in peace and his kids may go to college and live like any other Americans.

Edited November 2, 2009 by theking1322

[Mohorak]

Every little bit helps, and you could have fines imposed on employers that don't follow the rules. The way that the government got the Mafia was by imprisoning them for tax evasion. The same thing could be done here. It's not perfect, but nothing is.

[ayayayaya]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

[Kemosabe]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

[ayayayaya]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

[one23]

Why are we talking about illegal people when we could be eating?

[Ruin]

Why are we talking about illegal people when we could be eating?

 

Because this is the debate room?

[Kemosabe]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

Immigrants would be willing to risk that in the chance for a better life, so your theory doesn't work. And it's not like you expect every illegal immigrant to know the exact consequences.

[Maggotswr]

IMO, if an illegal pays his/her taxes and is willing to learn English, they should be allowed to become naturalized citizens, but only if both requirements are met. That way, the regular guy can live in peace and his kids may go to college and live like any other Americans.

 

exactly, my parents are law abiding people that pay taxes. they are learning english. and really all of the illegal immigrants i know are like that. sure, some of them are bad people, but as far as i can tell the majority are good people

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

 

XD breh, people risk their lives to get here, some spend their entire life savings and then some just to hire a "coyote" and many of them die on the trip over here. And honestly prison sounds better than living in Zacatecas, Tijuana, Sinaloa, or Juarez. and thats just Mexico. furthermore, empty threats are meaningless

[Arianna]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

[ayayayaya]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

 

~~Samarkov ^_^

[Shooter585]

Why are we talking about illegal people when we could be eating?

I can't imagine New Zealand is much less obese than the United States.

 

On topic, I believe threatening them with no rights is the cheapest way to get illegal immigrants to reconsider their decision.

[DaNoobPro1337]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

You are supposed to be granted rights in your home country. There are legal avenues if you want to change your country. There are a lot of legal immigrants from Latin America, so why can't the illegals wait with the rest of their group? You know, the ones that are actually observing the law?

[one23]

If we were to jail them all our jails would be full of people we could just deport

[Kemosabe]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

 

~~Samarkov ^_^

How much would it cost and how long would it take to get the corrent legal documentation?

[Handgunroy]

I don't see the problem. Don't give jobs to anyone that doesn't have documentation; same to those that want to buy a house/rent an apartment.

If immigrant's come over without legal documentation they can't get a job or rent a flat and end up living on the streets and doing what they need to survive 'causing increase on street crime and other problems with society.

 

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

I think it's about and estimate of 23.5 million illegal immigrant's within the U.S.A, jailing them would could billions in tax payers money and building more jail's as most jail's are already full would cost billions again.

 

In the UK don't know how many people are coming in and we don't have a count on how many legal migrant's are going out so we actually have no clue how many immigrant's and legal worker's are in the UK.

[Arianna]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov ^_^

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

 

~~Samarkov :)

Many avenues to do it legallyWHAT? The easiest (and most advertised) way to enter the US is being already employed in the US. But how can you be employed in an US firm if you haven't even entered the US? :D

 

Another way: apply through Permanent Employment status. Easy enough, no?

 

Well, no. There are five ways to get that:

1. You may be eligible for an employment-based, first-preference visa if you have an extraordinary ability, are an outstanding professor or researcher, or are a multinational executive or manager. (EB-1)

2. You may be eligible for an employment-based, second preference visa if you are a member of the professions holding an advanced degree or its equivalent, or a foreign national who has exceptional ability. (EB-2)

3. You may be eligible for this immigrant visa preference category if you are a skilled worker, professional, or other worker. "Skilled workers” are persons whose job requires a minimum of 2 years training or work experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. “Professionals” are persons whose job requires at least a U.S. baccalaureate degree or a foreign equivalent and are a member of the professions. The “other workers” subcategory is for persons performing unskilled labor requiring less than 2 years training or experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. Note: While eligibility requirements for the third preference classification are less stringent, you should be aware that a long backlog exists for visas in the "other workers" category. See the “Department of State: Visa Bulletin” link to the right. Third preference petitions must generally be accompanied by an approved, individual labor certification from the Department of Labor on Form ETA-9089.

4. You may be eligible for an employment-based, fourth preference visa if you are a special immigrant. The following special immigrants are eligible for the fourth preference visa: Religious Ministers and Workers, Broadcasters,Iraqi/Afghan Translators,Iraqis Who Have Assisted the United States,International Organization Employees,Physicians,Armed Forces Members,Panama Canal Zone Employees,Retired NATO-6 employees,Spouses and Children of Deceased NATO-6 employees.

5. The fifth employment based visa preference category, created by Congress in 1990, is available to immigrants seeking to enter the United States in order to invest in a new commercial enterprise that will benefit the US economy and create at least 10 full-time jobs. There are two ways to invest which you may use within the EB-5 category and they are: creating a new commercial enterprise or investing in a troubled business.

 

The tl;dr version of all categories: you can emigrate from your country to the US only if you don't need to emigrate!

 

I didn't make anything up: just a ^C ^V job from http://www.uscis.gov/

 

How can you tell legal from illegal when you demonstrate to be ignorant of your own laws?

 

There are a lot of legal immigrants from Latin America

Most of which became legal after already obtaining a job in the US while being there illegally, then going back to their home country and applying for a permanent worker visa, but THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO ENTER ILLEGALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Or because they're refugees from countries that the US have hostile relations with (say, Cuba). Not to mention that "observing the law" is rather relative. Why should a legal immigrant who committed a criminal act (say, theft) be treated any better than an illegal immigrant who does nothing to violate the law?

[ayayayaya]

..

Edited June 11, 2021 by ayayayaya

[Arianna]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov ^_^

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

 

~~Samarkov :)

Many avenues to do it legallyWHAT? The easiest (and most advertised) way to enter the US is being already employed in the US. But how can you be employed in an US firm if you haven't even entered the US? :P

 

Another way: apply through Permanent Employment status. Easy enough, no?

 

Well, no. There are five ways to get that:

1. You may be eligible for an employment-based, first-preference visa if you have an extraordinary ability, are an outstanding professor or researcher, or are a multinational executive or manager. (EB-1)

2. You may be eligible for an employment-based, second preference visa if you are a member of the professions holding an advanced degree or its equivalent, or a foreign national who has exceptional ability. (EB-2)

3. You may be eligible for this immigrant visa preference category if you are a skilled worker, professional, or other worker. "Skilled workers” are persons whose job requires a minimum of 2 years training or work experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. “Professionals” are persons whose job requires at least a U.S. baccalaureate degree or a foreign equivalent and are a member of the professions. The “other workers” subcategory is for persons performing unskilled labor requiring less than 2 years training or experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. Note: While eligibility requirements for the third preference classification are less stringent, you should be aware that a long backlog exists for visas in the "other workers" category. See the “Department of State: Visa Bulletin” link to the right. Third preference petitions must generally be accompanied by an approved, individual labor certification from the Department of Labor on Form ETA-9089.

4. You may be eligible for an employment-based, fourth preference visa if you are a special immigrant. The following special immigrants are eligible for the fourth preference visa: Religious Ministers and Workers, Broadcasters,Iraqi/Afghan Translators,Iraqis Who Have Assisted the United States,International Organization Employees,Physicians,Armed Forces Members,Panama Canal Zone Employees,Retired NATO-6 employees,Spouses and Children of Deceased NATO-6 employees.

5. The fifth employment based visa preference category, created by Congress in 1990, is available to immigrants seeking to enter the United States in order to invest in a new commercial enterprise that will benefit the US economy and create at least 10 full-time jobs. There are two ways to invest which you may use within the EB-5 category and they are: creating a new commercial enterprise or investing in a troubled business.

 

The tl;dr version of all categories: you can emigrate from your country to the US only if you don't need to emigrate!

 

I didn't make anything up: just a ^C ^V job from http://www.uscis.gov/

 

How can you tell legal from illegal when you demonstrate to be ignorant of your own laws?

 

There are a lot of legal immigrants from Latin America

Most of which became legal after already obtaining a job in the US while being there illegally, then going back to their home country and applying for a permanent worker visa, but THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO ENTER ILLEGALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Or because they're refugees from countries that the US have hostile relations with (say, Cuba). Not to mention that "observing the law" is rather relative. Why should a legal immigrant who committed a criminal act (say, theft) be treated any better than an illegal immigrant who does nothing to violate the law?

 

The fact is, Mexico isn't holding it's people captive, so why won't they do it legally to avoid the whole issue. I had to get legalized to come here from Germany, so why shouldn't they from anywhere else? I also live in a state where it's filled with illegal immigrants from Mexico. It is entirely frustrating that the learning goes at a slower place because they don't know English. It's ruining education here. If you want a better life, free of crime and poverty, make the first step a legal one and get citizenship.

 

 

~~Samarkov :D

Congratulations on not regarding even one single point from my post. I've explained why they won't (they can't) do it legally. You, or the one(s) under whose responsibility you are on, had the chance of obtaining at least one of the reasons above and had the means to: Germany is nothing like Mexico, if you think about it.

 

And why does it matter if a country holds its people captive or not? :D

[DaNoobPro1337]

Illegal : Breaking the law.

 

Breaking the law : Punishment instated.

 

It's no different than breaking any other law, arrest and jail them.

 

~~Samarkov

If you were to arrest and jail all the illegal immigrants, it would cost billions that could be put to better use.

 

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

 

 

~~Samarkov ^_^

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

 

~~Samarkov :)

Many avenues to do it legallyWHAT? The easiest (and most advertised) way to enter the US is being already employed in the US. But how can you be employed in an US firm if you haven't even entered the US? :P

 

Another way: apply through Permanent Employment status. Easy enough, no?

 

Well, no. There are five ways to get that:

1. You may be eligible for an employment-based, first-preference visa if you have an extraordinary ability, are an outstanding professor or researcher, or are a multinational executive or manager. (EB-1)

2. You may be eligible for an employment-based, second preference visa if you are a member of the professions holding an advanced degree or its equivalent, or a foreign national who has exceptional ability. (EB-2)

3. You may be eligible for this immigrant visa preference category if you are a skilled worker, professional, or other worker. "Skilled workers" are persons whose job requires a minimum of 2 years training or work experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. "Professionals" are persons whose job requires at least a U.S. baccalaureate degree or a foreign equivalent and are a member of the professions. The "other workers" subcategory is for persons performing unskilled labor requiring less than 2 years training or experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature. Note: While eligibility requirements for the third preference classification are less stringent, you should be aware that a long backlog exists for visas in the "other workers" category. See the "Department of State: Visa Bulletin" link to the right. Third preference petitions must generally be accompanied by an approved, individual labor certification from the Department of Labor on Form ETA-9089.

4. You may be eligible for an employment-based, fourth preference visa if you are a special immigrant. The following special immigrants are eligible for the fourth preference visa: Religious Ministers and Workers, Broadcasters,Iraqi/Afghan Translators,Iraqis Who Have Assisted the United States,International Organization Employees,Physicians,Armed Forces Members,Panama Canal Zone Employees,Retired NATO-6 employees,Spouses and Children of Deceased NATO-6 employees.

5. The fifth employment based visa preference category, created by Congress in 1990, is available to immigrants seeking to enter the United States in order to invest in a new commercial enterprise that will benefit the US economy and create at least 10 full-time jobs. There are two ways to invest which you may use within the EB-5 category and they are: creating a new commercial enterprise or investing in a troubled business.

 

The tl;dr version of all categories: you can emigrate from your country to the US only if you don't need to emigrate!

 

I didn't make anything up: just a ^C ^V job from http://www.uscis.gov/

 

How can you tell legal from illegal when you demonstrate to be ignorant of your own laws?

 

There are a lot of legal immigrants from Latin America

Most of which became legal after already obtaining a job in the US while being there illegally, then going back to their home country and applying for a permanent worker visa, but THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO ENTER ILLEGALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Or because they're refugees from countries that the US have hostile relations with (say, Cuba). Not to mention that "observing the law" is rather relative. Why should a legal immigrant who committed a criminal act (say, theft) be treated any better than an illegal immigrant who does nothing to violate the law?

 

The fact is, Mexico isn't holding it's people captive, so why won't they do it legally to avoid the whole issue. I had to get legalized to come here from Germany, so why shouldn't they from anywhere else? I also live in a state where it's filled with illegal immigrants from Mexico. It is entirely frustrating that the learning goes at a slower place because they don't know English. It's ruining education here. If you want a better life, free of crime and poverty, make the first step a legal one and get citizenship.

 

 

~~Samarkov :D

Congratulations on not regarding even one single point from my post. I've explained why they won't (they can't) do it legally. You, or the one(s) under whose responsibility you are on, had the chance of obtaining at least one of the reasons above and had the means to: Germany is nothing like Mexico, if you think about it.

 

And why does it matter if a country holds its people captive or not? :D

 

Well, I think he was trying to make a point that a person living in a totalitarian country would be more inclined to immigrate illegally.

 

Regarding your last reply to my post:

 

1. America currently has no shortage of blue-collar workers. However, the real talent is in other countries (aka Asia), hence the focus on skilled workers.

 

2. I do believe that immigrant felons (i. e. thieves) are recommended for deportation after their prison term.

[Cow Queen]

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

How exactly would holding an empty threat out there change anything? I mean, think about it. If you're willing to leave your home, everything you know and grew up with, cross through one of the worst areas for drug wars in the continent, risk being caught by the police and sent back, and try to make it in a country that's wholly unfamiliar and doesn't even speak your language, are you really going to put all of that aside because they say that they're going to put you in jail? ^_^

 

If it were really that simple, they probably would have done that already :D

 

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

Why does it feel like you're the only one who has any clue what you're talking about in this topic?

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

And there's no need to bother with walking when you can just sprout wings and fly.

 

Becoming a US citizen isn't as easy as sending an envelope of paperwork through the mail when you're a full blooded Mexican, born and raised in Mexico, with no legal family outside of Mexico, with no reason for moving out of Mexico besides the infinitely better opportunities, and with a hundred thousand other people with the exact same hopes and background who are ahead of you in line.

 

I don't see the problem. Don't give jobs to anyone that doesn't have documentation; same to those that want to buy a house/rent an apartment.

If immigrant's come over without legal documentation they can't get a job or rent a flat and end up living on the streets and doing what they need to survive 'causing increase on street crime and other problems with society.

Or they get help from friends, find communities with other illegals, find jobs that are likely better than any they had in Mexico, and become happy, contributing members of society, with the exception that they get to live in fear of someday being found by the police and sent back. Funnily enough, not all illegals end up as drug dealers and prostitutes.

 

The fact is, Mexico isn't holding it's people captive, so why won't they do it legally to avoid the whole issue. I had to get legalized to come here from Germany, so why shouldn't they from anywhere else? I also live in a state where it's filled with illegal immigrants from Mexico. It is entirely frustrating that the learning goes at a slower place because they don't know English. It's ruining education here. If you want a better life, free of crime and poverty, make the first step a legal one and get citizenship.

Again, why walk when you can sprout wings and fly? Getting citizenship here is a grueling and painful process at best. As Dani was kind enough to post more on the matter, you might want to refer to that post you just quoted, and, you know, read it.

 

As far as learning English, English is an insanely complicated language, what with all the little quirks and allusions and idioms we've got. Becoming fluent in it when there are plenty of people around you who speak Spanish, and the ones who speak English are short tempered and tend to resent your very presence? I'd like to see you try it.

 

On a slightly irrelevant tangent, your post reminded me of a fun comic: http://xkcd.com/84/ :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

~CQ

[DaNoobPro1337]

If the threat of imprisonment with no rights is present, those billions won't be spent.

How exactly would holding an empty threat out there change anything? I mean, think about it. If you're willing to leave your home, everything you know and grew up with, cross through one of the worst areas for drug wars in the continent, risk being caught by the police and sent back, and try to make it in a country that's wholly unfamiliar and doesn't even speak your language, are you really going to put all of that aside because they say that they're going to put you in jail? ^_^

 

If it were really that simple, they probably would have done that already :D

 

I don't see why one's rights should be dependent on where his mother gave birth. Besides that, most risk their life to cross those borders, so your logic doesn't quite work, if at all.

Why does it feel like you're the only one who has any clue what you're talking about in this topic?

 

Then why won't they do it the proper way and become citizens. There is no need to come across illegally when there are many avenues to do it legally.

And there's no need to bother with walking when you can just sprout wings and fly.

 

Becoming a US citizen isn't as easy as sending an envelope of paperwork through the mail when you're a full blooded Mexican, born and raised in Mexico, with no legal family outside of Mexico, with no reason for moving out of Mexico besides the infinitely better opportunities, and with a hundred thousand other people with the exact same hopes and background who are ahead of you in line.

 

I don't see the problem. Don't give jobs to anyone that doesn't have documentation; same to those that want to buy a house/rent an apartment.

If immigrant's come over without legal documentation they can't get a job or rent a flat and end up living on the streets and doing what they need to survive 'causing increase on street crime and other problems with society.

Or they get help from friends, find communities with other illegals, find jobs that are likely better than any they had in Mexico, and become happy, contributing members of society, with the exception that they get to live in fear of someday being found by the police and sent back. Funnily enough, not all illegals end up as drug dealers and prostitutes.

 

The fact is, Mexico isn't holding it's people captive, so why won't they do it legally to avoid the whole issue. I had to get legalized to come here from Germany, so why shouldn't they from anywhere else? I also live in a state where it's filled with illegal immigrants from Mexico. It is entirely frustrating that the learning goes at a slower place because they don't know English. It's ruining education here. If you want a better life, free of crime and poverty, make the first step a legal one and get citizenship.

Again, why walk when you can sprout wings and fly? Getting citizenship here is a grueling and painful process at best. As Dani was kind enough to post more on the matter, you might want to refer to that post you just quoted, and, you know, read it.

 

As far as learning English, English is an insanely complicated language, what with all the little quirks and allusions and idioms we've got. Becoming fluent in it when there are plenty of people around you who speak Spanish, and the ones who speak English are short tempered and tend to resent your very presence? I'd like to see you try it.

 

On a slightly irrelevant tangent, your post reminded me of a fun comic: http://xkcd.com/84/ :)

 

~CQ

 

 

While the immigration process is rather long, I wouldn't really comparing it to flapping your arms and flying. To get our visas, we visited the consulate twice. To get our Perm. Residence card, we visited the consulate twice. That's a total of four visits. Not too bad, considering the fact that a typical job hunt today consumes way more time than some photos, forms, and four visits.

 

Learning a language is not impossible (btw, most languages spoken today are insanely complicated and confusing-that is, until you actually learn it). We recently had some transfer students from France visit our class. They spoke English quite well (and certainly knew their grammar better than at least a quarter of the students in our grade).