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Luftey

Taxes & Public Education

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I'm going to post this. I was thinking of this thread and the battles between capitalism and socialism. A lot of hardcore capitalists use the this analogy or similar ones.

 

"If you make and A on a test and another kid makes and F, but she gives you both a C, wouldn't you be pissed"

 

This is not a very accurate analogy for how I would like things to be though. I don't want the teacher to give the two kids the same grade, I just want them to both to be given the proper means of attaining that grade.

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EDIT: what fudging private school is 5k a year :ph34r:

That's a really cheap private school o_o

I know. Mine increased each year (cruel) and was like $13000 or something for just the education portion my senior year.

 

Honestly it's not that much money for someone making $40k or so a year, though.

The one I went to is up to 7K a year now ;p

 

School Zip Statistics:

About This Zipcode (22039)

School Zip (22039)

 

 

Population (Approximate) 18,471 people

% (age 25+) w/College Degree 75%

Population Average Age 41 years old

Average Household size 3.3 persons

Median Household Income $140,511

Avg. # of Rooms in Household 9.1 rooms

Median Age of Housing Structure 24 years old

 

Year Founded 1976

Student Body

Total Students 213 students

Student Body Type Co-ed

% Students of Color 40%

(VA School Avg.: 19%)

Students by Grade

Pre-K - 11 students

Kind - 11 students

Grade 1 - 8 students

Grade 2 - 16 students

Grade 3 - 13 students

Grade 4 - 14 students

Grade 5 - 17 students

Grade 6 - 13 students

Grade 7 - 18 students

Grade 8 - 15 students

Grade 9 - 21 students

Grade 10 - 13 students

Grade 11 - 26 students

Grade 12 - 17 students

 

Academics and Faculty

Total Classroom Teachers 17 teachers

Teacher : Student Ratio 1:13

(National school avg.: 1:16)

School Days in Calendar Year 170 days

(VA School Avg.: 180 days)

Hours in School Day for Students 7 hours

(VA School Avg.: 7 hours)

 

 

 

 

 

IF you look there, average income in that area is 140K and it's a church school so we use the church facilities/busses etc. and the church takes in a 50k+/week offering so the only real expense is paying the faculty. It has a 1:13 kid-teacher ratio which is nice. The only downside is that it doesn't offer tons of high school electives. Like at a public school depending on your interests you could take classes that relate to ones degree. This place only has the core classes (math/science/grammer etc) and the electives are pretty much limited to 3 foreign languages.

 

If it was a stand alone private school, then yes, odds are it'd be like your 13k school. Seeing you're already paying 13k/year for school, that's why I think it's unfair to make you pay more in taxes on top of that just for other students at public schools.

 

I COMPLETELY agree with the need for an educated society. I DON"T agree with, as I've said, the Gov running the education problem, I just don't feel it is their place. Just like we don't need them going, "To promote better nutrition, we will give everyone daily meals to make sure all children eat healthy along with their family" (Not implying they do that now). Take the whole creation/evolution debate. Regardless of which one you believe, the Gov schools only teach evolution. I know 90% of Sals believe in evolution, but the fact is many still believe in creation. It's unfair to those who DO belive in creation to fund school systems that refuse to also share that viewpoint. Nor do my tax dollars need to fund sex ed junk, or the sports teams so the NBA can sort sifting through prospects.

 

I firmly believe it's the parents job to educate. Heck they DECIDED to bring that kid into the world, so they should be 100% responsible for it. Yes, there will always be cases of the kid getting neglected. And I discussed that with Arianna. But, for the most part, most parents care about their kids (at least in my area). In the worst case, there should be an emphasize on homeschooling/private education with public education as a last resort. Even curricumls (see link I posted earlier) like Landmark are OK and it's only $40/course or like $250/year and it's self-paced, to use the Geigo expression, a cave man could do it (not exaggerating p)

 

I feel as I'm arguing for the parents doing the education, I'd also like to say I realize some families for whatever reason require both parents to work (or the only parent in some cases). There is always the evening to teach the child when the parents get home etc. And there are plenty of self-paced homeschool like packages that once a child is in 7th+ grade, they should be able to sit down and do it themselves without supervision. Furthermore, there are TONS of homeschool support groups out there that offer high level math etc in a style similar to community colleges for MINIMAL COST as they weren't set-up to make profit and the teachers are usually retired professors who are just glad to help out. There are also homeschooled sports also.

 

PRIVATE EDUCATION IS THE WAY TO GO. CONSIDER: You are bright, you can work faster and do more than you could being held back at a public school because there is always the one kid who doesn't get jack so the teachers spend all class on the same thing so he can get it.

 

You have a hard time grasping concepts: You can spend more time on the areas you struggle in so that way you can get a firmer grasp on them.

 

It's win-win.

 

I'm currently magma cum late (I doubt I spelt that right) in college, requires having a 3.5+ GPA out of a perfect 4.0 Many of my pals from my homeschool group (I left private school for my last few years so I could intern part time at an engineering research facility) have similar grades. Believe me, non-public education will prepare you just as well if not better. Scary part was, I had more free time than most of my public school friends during those last 3 years of high school ;p

 

A HUGE misconception I think many have is "The higher middle class/wealthy just one day woke up with wealth. Share please". Try starting your own company. Yes, in 50 years you'll be living high on the hog. But for the first several years all you do is live/sleep/breath work and more work and more work. It's unfair to say now, you worked hard, so now anty up more money for the lesser privileged. I know there are some exceptions, movie stars etc. but many didn't had to work hard for their money. The pay-off for years of hard work is that financial well being, it's TOTALLY unfair to now make us foot the bill for others.

 

And, you don't have to be smart/awesome college degree to succeed.

 

IE: A man I know never went to college and was a welder, and quite good at it. Welders oftentimes go from job to job as opposed to working for the same group forever. He started a place where basically a firm that needed say welding done on a construction job could send the welders to him, and he'd give them some welding tests to make sure they were good enough to weld to meet the codes/do the right job. Guess what? He's quite wealthy now. Again, took a skill that anyone can learn, doesn't require college education or money, and made a great life off of it. Life is what you make of it.

 

My Dad: Worked 40hrs/week as a Mechanical Engineer for the US Government and ran a A/C company on the side. Every weekend was doing jobs/evenings. Looong hours/hard work etc. And at the same time spending time with my sister, mother, and myself. (I used to go along and watch him on jobs, was fun :wizard: )The pay-off now is owning multiple properties, 8 cars, putting my sister and I through college with no debt along with a nice private/homeschool education up through 12th grade. He worked HARD to do that, I think it's unfair to now tax him more because he spent the time to become a success to help someone who while maybe "underprivileged" odds are didn't work night and day 7 days/week for years.

 

The guy who decides to skip college to drive a truck is going to regret it later and it isn't society's job to bail him out when he lands on hard times.

 

For the record, I'm not trying to say that if you aren't well off money wise you're lazy. I know many work day and night and they live sleep/breath work and can still barely make ends meet. From what I've read, Eye, you sound like a great guy and are doing your best to succeed etc. But, if we did what you said and provided all those things, that really takes away the incentive to work. That one famous guy said "If you don't work you shouldn't eat"

 

I believe that IF you ARE in a situation such as Eye, then it should be your friends/family/church helping you out, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. My church has a fund for members that are in a financial tight spot. Members give to it, and if someone in the church has a legit need the church will give them funds to help them out. THAT"S HOW IT SHOULD WORK. Citizens help each other. Not, let's get taxed so the Gov can divy stuff up. I have no desire for my money to go to the type of people I see on Cops who are drinking beer/tatted up in a trailer park watching cable Tv on welfare. Might as well go live in Cuba then;p The Gov isn't your big grandpa who gives you treats all the time, that's not why it was created.

 

Also,people instead of saying "I want a decent chance so I SHOULD get free medical/food/schooling etc. They could go to say an electrical company, numerous smaller family owned ones in most areas. Get a job (or perhaps volunteer) helping out and learning about the skill till you can take the State exams to be certified as one yourself. Even if that wasn't a field one liked, that would pay for community college where one could pursue your interest.

 

btw luftey, almost a lot of private schools also get state money ;-)

 

in addition you're sounding like a fudging prick, the message i got was "i can afford, ever should" is fudging bs.

 

i'm not quit sure is this is relevant or not but at my school it costs about 1m per md/pd student to be educated i beleive it's about 10-20k for a normal student

 

 

EDIT: what fudging private school is 5k a year :o

 

 

 

Max said I sounded prik'sh. If I was, I wouldn't give money to that fund at church etc. I'm not against helping the community, but, not through the government. One of you said that it costs 1M/student in public schools. If private schools can do that for sub 200k (Using the 13K value*12), 800K less than public schools, then I don't think the public schools would be overly burdened if those who used other education systems stopped helping pay for them. Just because I am lucky enough to be from a higher middle class family doesn't mean I owe society a debt.

 

And again Max, before you starting calling people "F" term because as you said "I can afford it so all can" take into consideration that's why I pointed out that $250/year option. All I was trying to say in my first post was, and as I've said in every post, it's the families job to take responsibility to make sure the kid is properly educated not the Governments. If public school WAS mandatory, then yes, taxes for it would be OK as everyone has to go there, but seeing it isn't, it's quite unfair to society to make those who don't use it pay for it.

 

 

So yes, YOU DON"T HAVE TO HAVE MONEY. So I fail to see how one can call someone the F word because they support non-public education.

 

 

AGAIN I AM NOT denying the need for an educated society, I just don't believe it is being gone about in the proper way.

---

 

One last point:

 

The common argument against mine is the case where the parents really dont' give a jack about the kid and is it fair to make the kid suffer because of that.

 

Yes, it's a great counter argument, but I really think that most (I hope at least) American families care enough to see their child is properly educated. In the case where the parents really don't care. First those are few and far between, and secondly, I hope there are relatives etc that will help out.

 

Anyway, it's my bed time;p Lol I thinking I'm rapidly becoming hated here on this part of Sals:L

Edited by Luftey

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I realized our arguing at this point would yield no results, as it's simply a different viewpoint. I, as a poor person, feel that the poor should be supported more than they are, you, as a rich person, feel they should be less.

 

If I can say ANYTHING at all, realize this:

 

MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT YOUR "LAYABOUT POOR PEOPLE WHO LIKE LIVING OFF WELFARE"

 

Living off Welfare sucks.

 

It's fudgeing difficult to get out of being poor. Getting poor -> middleclass is a gigantic leap. It is years of managing your very little wealth as well as you can, doing work however you can, and trying to somehow pay off debt. It is helped hugely by the Public Education System, because all of a sudden that barrier is gone. That's one (gigantic) barrier that poor people don't have to worry about anymore.

 

I know if the Public Education System did not exist as it does, I would not be educated. That is as it stands. I love learning, I plan on going on to University, doing sciences, potentially going on to medschool, and making a living for myself that way. That will take years and years of determination and hard work, and I will incur more debt than I'd like to think about right now.

 

But all of that would be totally impossible if I wasn't educated from a young age, in a Public System. I love learning (NOW), but you think I loved it when I was 4, 5, 6? Not a chance. Waiting until the child is old enough to make a decision on how much work he wants to put into getting educated is waiting too long.

 

All I'm saying, is I view education as a right. Superior education is an extra. Education is (thankfully) a right in North America, Europe, and most of the World. Don't take that away from me and don't take that away from people like me.

 

Edit: Loltypo

Edited by Eye

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I'll respond to the rest later, but can we please leave creationism out of this debate? Religious beliefs are an entirely different matter and will just take us down a road from which we'll never get back.

Edited by heb0

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EDIT: what fudging private school is 5k a year :ph34r:

That's a really cheap private school o_o

I know. Mine increased each year (cruel) and was like $13000 or something for just the education portion my senior year.

 

Honestly it's not that much money for someone making $40k or so a year, though.

The one I went to is up to 7K a year now ;p

 

School Zip Statistics:

About This Zipcode (22039)

School Zip (22039)

 

 

Population (Approximate) 18,471 people

% (age 25+) w/College Degree 75%

Population Average Age 41 years old

Average Household size 3.3 persons

Median Household Income $140,511

Avg. # of Rooms in Household 9.1 rooms

Median Age of Housing Structure 24 years old

 

Year Founded 1976

Student Body

Total Students 213 students

Student Body Type Co-ed

% Students of Color 40%

(VA School Avg.: 19%)

Students by Grade

Pre-K - 11 students

Kind - 11 students

Grade 1 - 8 students

Grade 2 - 16 students

Grade 3 - 13 students

Grade 4 - 14 students

Grade 5 - 17 students

Grade 6 - 13 students

Grade 7 - 18 students

Grade 8 - 15 students

Grade 9 - 21 students

Grade 10 - 13 students

Grade 11 - 26 students

Grade 12 - 17 students

 

Academics and Faculty

Total Classroom Teachers 17 teachers

Teacher : Student Ratio 1:13

(National school avg.: 1:16)

School Days in Calendar Year 170 days

(VA School Avg.: 180 days)

Hours in School Day for Students 7 hours

(VA School Avg.: 7 hours)

 

 

 

 

 

IF you look there, average income in that area is 140K and it's a church school so we use the church facilities/busses etc. and the church takes in a 50k+/week offering so the only real expense is paying the faculty. It has a 1:13 kid-teacher ratio which is nice. The only downside is that it doesn't offer tons of high school electives. Like at a public school depending on your interests you could take classes that relate to ones degree. This place only has the core classes (math/science/grammer etc) and the electives are pretty much limited to 3 foreign languages.

 

If it was a stand alone private school, then yes, odds are it'd be like your 13k school. Seeing you're already paying 13k/year for school, that's why I think it's unfair to make you pay more in taxes on top of that just for other students at public schools.

 

I COMPLETELY agree with the need for an educated society. I DON"T agree with, as I've said, the Gov running the education problem, I just don't feel it is their place. Just like we don't need them going, "To promote better nutrition, we will give everyone daily meals to make sure all children eat healthy along with their family" (Not implying they do that now). Take the whole creation/evolution debate. Regardless of which one you believe, the Gov schools only teach evolution. I know 90% of Sals believe in evolution, but the fact is many still believe in creation. It's unfair to those who DO belive in creation to fund school systems that refuse to also share that viewpoint. Nor do my tax dollars need to fund sex ed junk, or the sports teams so the NBA can sort sifting through prospects.

 

I firmly believe it's the parents job to educate. Heck they DECIDED to bring that kid into the world, so they should be 100% responsible for it. Yes, there will always be cases of the kid getting neglected. And I discussed that with Arianna. But, for the most part, most parents care about their kids (at least in my area). In the worst case, there should be an emphasize on homeschooling/private education with public education as a last resort. Even curricumls (see link I posted earlier) like Landmark are OK and it's only $40/course or like $250/year and it's self-paced, to use the Geigo expression, a cave man could do it (not exaggerating p)

 

I feel as I'm arguing for the parents doing the education, I'd also like to say I realize some families for whatever reason require both parents to work (or the only parent in some cases). There is always the evening to teach the child when the parents get home etc. And there are plenty of self-paced homeschool like packages that once a child is in 7th+ grade, they should be able to sit down and do it themselves without supervision. Furthermore, there are TONS of homeschool support groups out there that offer high level math etc in a style similar to community colleges for MINIMAL COST as they weren't set-up to make profit and the teachers are usually retired professors who are just glad to help out. There are also homeschooled sports also.

 

PRIVATE EDUCATION IS THE WAY TO GO. CONSIDER: You are bright, you can work faster and do more than you could being held back at a public school because there is always the one kid who doesn't get jack so the teachers spend all class on the same thing so he can get it.

 

You have a hard time grasping concepts: You can spend more time on the areas you struggle in so that way you can get a firmer grasp on them.

 

It's win-win.

 

I'm currently magma cum late (I doubt I spelt that right) in college, requires having a 3.5+ GPA out of a perfect 4.0 Many of my pals from my homeschool group (I left private school for my last few years so I could intern part time at an engineering research facility) have similar grades. Believe me, non-public education will prepare you just as well if not better. Scary part was, I had more free time than most of my public school friends during those last 3 years of high school ;p

 

A HUGE misconception I think many have is "The higher middle class/wealthy just one day woke up with wealth. Share please". Try starting your own company. Yes, in 50 years you'll be living high on the hog. But for the first several years all you do is live/sleep/breath work and more work and more work. It's unfair to say now, you worked hard, so now anty up more money for the lesser privileged. I know there are some exceptions, movie stars etc. but many didn't had to work hard for their money. The pay-off for years of hard work is that financial well being, it's TOTALLY unfair to now make us foot the bill for others.

 

And, you don't have to be smart/awesome college degree to succeed.

 

IE: A man I know never went to college and was a welder, and quite good at it. Welders oftentimes go from job to job as opposed to working for the same group forever. He started a place where basically a firm that needed say welding done on a construction job could send the welders to him, and he'd give them some welding tests to make sure they were good enough to weld to meet the codes/do the right job. Guess what? He's quite wealthy now. Again, took a skill that anyone can learn, doesn't require college education or money, and made a great life off of it. Life is what you make of it.

 

My Dad: Worked 40hrs/week as a Mechanical Engineer for the US Government and ran a A/C company on the side. Every weekend was doing jobs/evenings. Looong hours/hard work etc. And at the same time spending time with my sister, mother, and myself. (I used to go along and watch him on jobs, was fun :wizard: )The pay-off now is owning multiple properties, 8 cars, putting my sister and I through college with no debt along with a nice private/homeschool education up through 12th grade. He worked HARD to do that, I think it's unfair to now tax him more because he spent the time to become a success to help someone who while maybe "underprivileged" odds are didn't work night and day 7 days/week for years.

 

The guy who decides to skip college to drive a truck is going to regret it later and it isn't society's job to bail him out when he lands on hard times.

 

For the record, I'm not trying to say that if you aren't well off money wise you're lazy. I know many work day and night and they live sleep/breath work and can still barely make ends meet. From what I've read, Eye, you sound like a great guy and are doing your best to succeed etc. But, if we did what you said and provided all those things, that really takes away the incentive to work. That one famous guy said "If you don't work you shouldn't eat"

 

I believe that IF you ARE in a situation such as Eye, then it should be your friends/family/church helping you out, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. My church has a fund for members that are in a financial tight spot. Members give to it, and if someone in the church has a legit need the church will give them funds to help them out. THAT"S HOW IT SHOULD WORK. Citizens help each other. Not, let's get taxed so the Gov can divy stuff up. I have no desire for my money to go to the type of people I see on Cops who are drinking beer/tatted up in a trailer park watching cable Tv on welfare. Might as well go live in Cuba then;p The Gov isn't your big grandpa who gives you treats all the time, that's not why it was created.

 

Also,people instead of saying "I want a decent chance so I SHOULD get free medical/food/schooling etc. They could go to say an electrical company, numerous smaller family owned ones in most areas. Get a job (or perhaps volunteer) helping out and learning about the skill till you can take the State exams to be certified as one yourself. Even if that wasn't a field one liked, that would pay for community college where one could pursue your interest.

 

btw luftey, almost a lot of private schools also get state money ;-)

 

in addition you're sounding like a fudging prick, the message i got was "i can afford, ever should" is fudging bs.

 

i'm not quit sure is this is relevant or not but at my school it costs about 1m per md/pd student to be educated i beleive it's about 10-20k for a normal student

 

 

EDIT: what fudging private school is 5k a year :o

 

 

 

Max said I sounded prik'sh. If I was, I wouldn't give money to that fund at church etc. I'm not against helping the community, but, not through the government. One of you said that it costs 1M/student in public schools. If private schools can do that for sub 200k (Using the 13K value*12), 800K less than public schools, then I don't think the public schools would be overly burdened if those who used other education systems stopped helping pay for them. Just because I am lucky enough to be from a higher middle class family doesn't mean I owe society a debt.

 

And again Max, before you starting calling people "F" term because as you said "I can afford it so all can" take into consideration that's why I pointed out that $250/year option. All I was trying to say in my first post was, and as I've said in every post, it's the families job to take responsibility to make sure the kid is properly educated not the Governments. If public school WAS mandatory, then yes, taxes for it would be OK as everyone has to go there, but seeing it isn't, it's quite unfair to society to make those who don't use it pay for it.

 

 

So yes, YOU DON"T HAVE TO HAVE MONEY. So I fail to see how one can call someone the F word because they support non-public education.

 

 

AGAIN I AM NOT denying the need for an educated society, I just don't believe it is being gone about in the proper way.

---

 

One last point:

 

The common argument against mine is the case where the parents really dont' give a jack about the kid and is it fair to make the kid suffer because of that.

 

Yes, it's a great counter argument, but I really think that most (I hope at least) American families care enough to see their child is properly educated. In the case where the parents really don't care. First those are few and far between, and secondly, I hope there are relatives etc that will help out.

 

Anyway, it's my bed time;p Lol I thinking I'm rapidly becoming hated here on this part of Sals:L

 

 

 

md/pd means mentally/physically deficint, in the op you were talking about that(i think)

 

also 50% of all businesses fail within the first 3 years(just throwing that out there)

 

also private education is almost if not the same as public.

 

 

EDIT: you do realize that if everyone didn't help contribute to public education there would be a huge majority of kids/people without education, which is basically what you're saying

 

in addition a single parent(unless they have a very good job) would be unable to send many if any kids to private, the system your proposing just doesn't work

Edited by _max

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The poor can't support themselves, so the rich shouldn't get off free just because they've already got themselves covered.

Last I checked, the rich were paying more? Don't see how they're getting off free.

 

The rich actually pay less, percentage based, than the poor (in America) which is sickening. Regardless, I'm saying they SHOULDN'T get off free. I'm GLAD they don't. The rich are the ones who are able to afford to send their kids to private schools, so if you made it so that the people whose kids went to private schools didn't have to pay education tax, the rich would not be paying for the poor to go to school, which I would say is wrong.

So basically your ideology is that since someone has more money, no matter how it is come to them, that they are obligated to pay for the people that dont? Thats the biggest load ive ever heard. Your basically arguing that it isnt fair that some kids are rich and some are poor, wanna hear a secret? Life isnt fair, life sucks, we go through everything with the cards we are dealt and do our best. There are so many rags to riches stories where kids are as bad if not worse than you are, and grow up to be millionaires....i hate the whole "omg being poor is hard, i wanna get money from rich so its all fair"

 

The rich can keep their money. What I want, is a fair shot at life. That means, education, food, water, healthcare, social services, and welfare for those who have nothing.

 

I think taxes should be scaled upwards as people have more money to pay for them. 15% means less to someone making $300,000 than it does someone making $15,000. I don't know how that makes me demanding of other peoples money. If I were rich, I'd stand by my opinions, because I think it's only fair that the rich and the poor both have an equal shot at life.

 

Now, that said, is life still 100% fair? No. Racism, sexism, bullying, homophobia, religious wars, all these things exist. POVERTY still exists. You're right. Life ISN'T fair. However, everyone deserves the basic things they need to make SOMETHING out of their life.

Saying that the rich can keep there money, and then saying taxes should be scaled is a complete contradiction.... Say the poverished pay 15% and the rich pay 30% which is double. The poverty line for a 4 person household is 22,350$ which with 15% tax is about 22,000$ and 300,000$ in a rich family with 30% tax is left with 210,000 now while this is still high, look at the difference, you lost 300$ and they lost almost a grand.... And yet this is the fair system? Many families like that live in higher class areas, with higher rate of living. Your not just taking money you could be bringing them down in social class if they can no longer afford to pay for there house. Also before u say "well ths is and invalid argument" I lived off welfare for 14 years. My family just got off it 2 years ago. Ive been where your at, and we did fine and made it.

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EDIT: what fudging private school is 5k a year :D

That's a really cheap private school o_o

Mine is under four thousand per year. :(

 

That said, it is a Catholic school and the diocese chips in quite a bit.

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The poor can't support themselves, so the rich shouldn't get off free just because they've already got themselves covered.

Last I checked, the rich were paying more? Don't see how they're getting off free.

 

The rich actually pay less, percentage based, than the poor (in America) which is sickening. Regardless, I'm saying they SHOULDN'T get off free. I'm GLAD they don't. The rich are the ones who are able to afford to send their kids to private schools, so if you made it so that the people whose kids went to private schools didn't have to pay education tax, the rich would not be paying for the poor to go to school, which I would say is wrong.

So basically your ideology is that since someone has more money, no matter how it is come to them, that they are obligated to pay for the people that dont? Thats the biggest load ive ever heard. Your basically arguing that it isnt fair that some kids are rich and some are poor, wanna hear a secret? Life isnt fair, life sucks, we go through everything with the cards we are dealt and do our best. There are so many rags to riches stories where kids are as bad if not worse than you are, and grow up to be millionaires....i hate the whole "omg being poor is hard, i wanna get money from rich so its all fair"

 

The rich can keep their money. What I want, is a fair shot at life. That means, education, food, water, healthcare, social services, and welfare for those who have nothing.

 

I think taxes should be scaled upwards as people have more money to pay for them. 15% means less to someone making $300,000 than it does someone making $15,000. I don't know how that makes me demanding of other peoples money. If I were rich, I'd stand by my opinions, because I think it's only fair that the rich and the poor both have an equal shot at life.

 

Now, that said, is life still 100% fair? No. Racism, sexism, bullying, homophobia, religious wars, all these things exist. POVERTY still exists. You're right. Life ISN'T fair. However, everyone deserves the basic things they need to make SOMETHING out of their life.

Saying that the rich can keep there money, and then saying taxes should be scaled is a complete contradiction.... Say the poverished pay 15% and the rich pay 30% which is double. The poverty line for a 4 person household is 22,350$ which with 15% tax is about 22,000$ and 300,000$ in a rich family with 30% tax is left with 210,000 now while this is still high, look at the difference, you lost 300$ and they lost almost a grand.... And yet this is the fair system? Many families like that live in higher class areas, with higher rate of living. Your not just taking money you could be bringing them down in social class if they can no longer afford to pay for there house. Also before u say "well ths is and invalid argument" I lived off welfare for 14 years. My family just got off it 2 years ago. Ive been where your at, and we did fine and made it.

having also been on wellfare at one point i think it's stupid to say that paying 90k a year in income tax when u make 300k is a hassle lol.

if warren buffet, one of the richest people in the world can live at his small house that he's owned for ages i can't see why more people can't. being rich is one thing, not being a cabbage-lover with your money is a whole nother thing. also for the extreme rich. they amount of money they pay in taxes is fudging stupid, there are so many loopholes and stuff that it's not even funny. here's some food for thought, or a

for that matter

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The poor can't support themselves, so the rich shouldn't get off free just because they've already got themselves covered.

Last I checked, the rich were paying more? Don't see how they're getting off free.

 

The rich actually pay less, percentage based, than the poor (in America) which is sickening. Regardless, I'm saying they SHOULDN'T get off free. I'm GLAD they don't. The rich are the ones who are able to afford to send their kids to private schools, so if you made it so that the people whose kids went to private schools didn't have to pay education tax, the rich would not be paying for the poor to go to school, which I would say is wrong.

So basically your ideology is that since someone has more money, no matter how it is come to them, that they are obligated to pay for the people that dont? Thats the biggest load ive ever heard. Your basically arguing that it isnt fair that some kids are rich and some are poor, wanna hear a secret? Life isnt fair, life sucks, we go through everything with the cards we are dealt and do our best. There are so many rags to riches stories where kids are as bad if not worse than you are, and grow up to be millionaires....i hate the whole "omg being poor is hard, i wanna get money from rich so its all fair"

 

The rich can keep their money. What I want, is a fair shot at life. That means, education, food, water, healthcare, social services, and welfare for those who have nothing.

 

I think taxes should be scaled upwards as people have more money to pay for them. 15% means less to someone making $300,000 than it does someone making $15,000. I don't know how that makes me demanding of other peoples money. If I were rich, I'd stand by my opinions, because I think it's only fair that the rich and the poor both have an equal shot at life.

 

Now, that said, is life still 100% fair? No. Racism, sexism, bullying, homophobia, religious wars, all these things exist. POVERTY still exists. You're right. Life ISN'T fair. However, everyone deserves the basic things they need to make SOMETHING out of their life.

Saying that the rich can keep there money, and then saying taxes should be scaled is a complete contradiction.... Say the poverished pay 15% and the rich pay 30% which is double. The poverty line for a 4 person household is 22,350$ which with 15% tax is about 22,000$ and 300,000$ in a rich family with 30% tax is left with 210,000 now while this is still high, look at the difference, you lost 300$ and they lost almost a grand.... And yet this is the fair system? Many families like that live in higher class areas, with higher rate of living. Your not just taking money you could be bringing them down in social class if they can no longer afford to pay for there house. Also before u say "well ths is and invalid argument" I lived off welfare for 14 years. My family just got off it 2 years ago. Ive been where your at, and we did fine and made it.

 

Meaning I don't want the money directly put towards me or other people like me, just the social services that the government needs to provide. Anyways, I just believe what I believe, and I really don't think arguing about it will do much. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Although I really don't see how someone who's making 300k would be actually hurt by having $210k post taxes.

 

It scales up quite dramatically here in Canada which definitely follows these ideologies of mine to a somewhat decent degree. It works here.

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Saying that the rich can keep there money, and then saying taxes should be scaled is a complete contradiction.... Say the poverished pay 15% and the rich pay 30% which is double. The poverty line for a 4 person household is 22,350$ which with 15% tax is about 22,000$ and 300,000$ in a rich family with 30% tax is left with 210,000 now while this is still high, look at the difference, you lost 300$ and they lost almost a grand.... And yet this is the fair system? Many families like that live in higher class areas, with higher rate of living. Your not just taking money you could be bringing them down in social class if they can no longer afford to pay for there house. Also before u say "well ths is and invalid argument" I lived off welfare for 14 years. My family just got off it 2 years ago. Ive been where your at, and we did fine and made it.

Implying that the relationship between hard work and income is linear.

Edited by heb0

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Saying that the rich can keep there money, and then saying taxes should be scaled is a complete contradiction.... Say the poverished pay 15% and the rich pay 30% which is double. The poverty line for a 4 person household is 22,350$ which with 15% tax is about 22,000$ and 300,000$ in a rich family with 30% tax is left with 210,000 now while this is still high, look at the difference, you lost 300$ and they lost almost a grand.... And yet this is the fair system? Many families like that live in higher class areas, with higher rate of living. Your not just taking money you could be bringing them down in social class if they can no longer afford to pay for there house. Also before u say "well ths is and invalid argument" I lived off welfare for 14 years. My family just got off it 2 years ago. Ive been where your at, and we did fine and made it.

Implying that the relationship between hard work and income is linear.

/thread

 

heb0 just made my day lol

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How I see it is that Government should serve the interests of society in general and not select groups. If taxing the rich to fund poor education improves society and the average wealth of the country then it works. Having £40,000+ to spend on comfortable lifestyle is less important than something that is essential to a child's future. Also

 

Your argument seems to suggest that kids from rich families are entitled to a higher standard of living than poor children. Children don't chose whether to be born in family x or y and should therefore have the same standard of education or opportunity. Children shouldn't be punished for something that is not in their control.

 

It's a huge waste to get a very intelligent child and place him in a poor economic and social situation where education isn't valued wasting his ability. If anything education should be decided by ability rather than your parents check-book.

Edited by Cruelle de vil

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PRIVATE EDUCATION IS THE WAY TO GO. CONSIDER: You are bright, you can work faster and do more than you could being held back at a public school because there is always the one kid who doesn't get jack so the teachers spend all class on the same thing so he can get it.

 

Absolutely untrue. The lowest common denominator will always be the lowest common denominator, always. In the public education system, children have the choice of taking AP courses. They are split according to ability early on.

 

I'm a product of the public education system and I am a product of the private education system. The same people are everywhere. It can be worse in private schools because students tend to fall back on their parents. This is my experience because I graduated from the most expensive private school in Canada's highest per capita income (richest) town. I do believe that I've been prepared, but if I look at other people, they struggle.

 

I feel as though you're ignoring so many social and psychological aspects to your argument. For example, churches are big. Churches are small. According to Jon Meacham, his church is situated in arguably the most expensive piece of real state in America. There are churches that are breaking down.

 

Do you get my point? If you're rich, you're not going to go to a church in the ghetto unless you're Mark Wahlberg. He's one man.

 

Secondly, it's very hard to accept help from your own rather than a faceless institution like the government. Poor people are very proud people.

 

At the end of the day, hard work is only a fraction of the pie. Life's also about the opportunities that you land.

 

You have some valid points, but you're looking at only one side of the picture for both sides. You're looking at the positives for privatizing, and you're looking at the negatives for socializing. That's not fair.

 

By the way, my private school was $18k at my last year (and that excludes the $4k that the school gets per child)

Edited by Definition

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- I’m paying ~5K/year for each child. Most private schools don’t have the zillion different electives that a public high school does, but, the school works with the incoming tuition to offer the highest quality education that it can with what it receives. Likewise, the public schools should only get tax money from the parents of kids who use them and work with what it gets from them.

-TONS of these families have cable TV/new cars/nice stuff. My family has to go without the brand new leather seated BMW in order to pay for a private education. It’s completely unfair to make us make sacrifices but ask the families of public schoolers make none for their child’s education.

-I’m already paying 10k/year to send two kids to school, why should I also have to help some random kid get his?

-It’s the parents NOT the State’s job to see the child is educated.

-Perhaps I don’t mind footing the bill, but, my money also goes to help the school’s sports, why should my hard earned money go so some kid can run around on a field all day and bounce a ball around/ I get up early to drive my child to the private school some 30 minutes away, why am I supporting the gass guzzling school busses for the children whose parents can’t do what I do and take them to school.

-(a mom’s point of view) I’m giving up working in order to homeschool my child. Yet, I must pay for some other kid’s schooling so that BOTH his parents can work full time. So thus, they both make more money all while I’m helping to support their kid get educated.

 

First of all, may I say, Republican?

Second, I think one important flaw in your logic is that, if you don't use it, you shouldn't have to pay for it. Here's the thing; there are things you gain from taxes that other people may not. Saying that you have no gains that other people may have is therefore false. The government, for example, may invest in new roads. Not everybody uses the roads, so why should everybody pay. (Yes, almost everybody uses roads, but it's an example)

And honestly, how can you complain? The highest current US tax bracket is (I believe) 35% for +/- $380,000 and up. Compare this to the Netherlands, (which, for the record, is only 3 ranks lower in the Human Development Index) where it is 52% for +/-$75000 and up! There you have one reason for the huge debt. There's a saying in Dutch: 'Making an elephant out of a mosquito.' I will leave it at that.

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sorry if this is rather off topic, but luftey i never called anyone the F word i was implying that that was fudging bs :(

 

EDIT: no wait, maybe i did ;c

 

i'm going to use myself as an example.

 

After my mom and dad got divorced my mom had to go into business herself, this ended up being a cleaning service(home/business) this doesn't take in much but it certainly keeps us alive(lol) if she were forced to have paid around 5k(probably more in my area) to send each of my siblings and I to school(that's 5 kids a year) that would cost at the least 25k+ that's fudging impossible as she makes i think around 30k a year

Edited by _max

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sorry if this is rather off topic, but luftey i never called anyone the F word i was implying that that was fudging bs :(

 

EDIT: no wait, maybe i did ;c

 

i'm going to use myself as an example.

 

After my mom and dad got divorced my mom had to go into business herself, this ended up being a cleaning service(home/business) this doesn't take in much but it certainly keeps us alive(lol) if she were forced to have paid around 5k(probably more in my area) to send each of my siblings and I to school(that's 5 kids a year) that would cost at the least 25k+ that's fudging impossible as she makes i think around 30k a year

 

The argument is that if education would be privatized, the rates would be lowered, say like $1500 a kid. That's much more manageable for a family with 5 kids. However, that's not how it really works and ever worked.

 

Luftey is saying that because he can afford to pay, he should have the taxes that he pays for school returned to him.

 

What he doesn't know is that private schools aren't really private. The ones here at least takes $3000/child and charges another $16000 to the parent. In turn, they follow the curriculum that follow the state standards, so they're actually learning side by side.

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sorry if this is rather off topic, but luftey i never called anyone the F word i was implying that that was fudging bs :(

 

EDIT: no wait, maybe i did ;c

 

i'm going to use myself as an example.

 

After my mom and dad got divorced my mom had to go into business herself, this ended up being a cleaning service(home/business) this doesn't take in much but it certainly keeps us alive(lol) if she were forced to have paid around 5k(probably more in my area) to send each of my siblings and I to school(that's 5 kids a year) that would cost at the least 25k+ that's fudging impossible as she makes i think around 30k a year

 

The argument is that if education would be privatized, the rates would be lowered, say like $1500 a kid. That's much more manageable for a family with 5 kids. However, that's not how it really works and ever worked.

 

Luftey is saying that because he can afford to pay, he should have the taxes that he pays for school returned to him.

 

What he doesn't know is that private schools aren't really private. The ones here at least takes $3000/child and charges another $16000 to the parent. In turn, they follow the curriculum that follow the state standards, so they're actually learning side by side.

that what i was talking about earlier :D

 

i said that not all private schools are 100% private

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sorry if this is rather off topic, but luftey i never called anyone the F word i was implying that that was fudging bs :D

 

EDIT: no wait, maybe i did ;c

 

i'm going to use myself as an example.

 

After my mom and dad got divorced my mom had to go into business herself, this ended up being a cleaning service(home/business) this doesn't take in much but it certainly keeps us alive(lol) if she were forced to have paid around 5k(probably more in my area) to send each of my siblings and I to school(that's 5 kids a year) that would cost at the least 25k+ that's fudging impossible as she makes i think around 30k a year

 

The argument is that if education would be privatized, the rates would be lowered, say like $1500 a kid. That's much more manageable for a family with 5 kids. However, that's not how it really works and ever worked.

 

Luftey is saying that because he can afford to pay, he should have the taxes that he pays for school returned to him.

 

What he doesn't know is that private schools aren't really private. The ones here at least takes $3000/child and charges another $16000 to the parent. In turn, they follow the curriculum that follow the state standards, so they're actually learning side by side.

that what i was talking about earlier :P

 

i said that not all private schools are 100% private

 

Well, I'm glad that we're on the same page :(

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