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Helm Lardar

A theoretical discussion of the Squeal

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I'm looking for a little discussion on the controversial squeal of fortune. I'm not looking for very short answers, I'm hoping to get some reasoned posts and a bit of an idea of precisely why you feel that way. Please read this post before putting an answer down, and if you put something like "SoF showed Jagex was capitalist and I don't like players being able to buy xp", bear in mind that I'd like to know (a) why you think a capitalist jagex is bad and (b) why you don't like players buying xp.

 

However, the question will not be immediately straightforward. I'm going to set a premise for the discussion.

 

Assuming this bullet pointed list is/were true, do you think the SoF should be shut down or replaced?

  • Jagex is almost bankrupt, having canned 3-4 successive moneymaking attempts recently, each causing multi-million dollar losses, and is working on a fourth that will cost just as much and has not yet seen any return.
  • The Squeal is incredibly bad value for money, and 2-3 times better value can be found at any illegal website.
  • Less than 1% of players will be able to succesfully fund xp gains, and less than 10% will ever buy more than 500k xp in their entire character's lifetime. However, this makes Jagex the equivalent of thousands of memberships in money.
  • Yelp has recently been replaced by the sombre troll, Mr. Coffin, who neither cracks jokes nor uses exclamation marks in any of his literature. The squeal is not irritatingly colourful and Mr. Coffin does not smile. He also doesn't make pop-ups on your screen each day. It's also been renamed the Wheel of Fate-influenced-by-cash, or WoFibc for short.
  • Should Jagex cease to make money, the game will start to decline, with fewer and fewer updates, bugfixes, and servers. However, SoF currently is making enough to keep runescape and Jagex's other projects afloat.
  • You are finding almost every update (other than WoFibc ones) aimed at your player group fun and engaging.

IF you don't read the bullet points, please don't bother posting.

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I don't think anyone is saying that being capitalist is bad. What's bad is that the squeal is effectively RWT for skill points.

To answer your points one at a time...

  • Jagex is almost bankrupt... I don't think anyone would complain about buying spins if players couldn't essentially buy skill lamps.. Buying skill lamps for real world munny is kind'a like cheating at the game. That's what has most people pissed.
  • The Squeal is incredibly bad value for money... That's a good point. Jagex ought to make the squeal a better value so that fewer people will go to competing sites to do RWT.
  • Less than 1% of players will be able to successfully fund xp gains... Although I've never bought a spin, my character has risen several levels from exp gained from the squeal alone.
  • Yelp has recently been replaced by the sombre troll... I didn't notice that. I'll notice the next time I log in or complete a quest.
  • Should Jagex cease to make money, the game will start to decline... Then keep the squeal. Offer prizes other than lamps that are desirable. And make them tradeable! I won two of those silly fish masks from the squeal, and I'm gleefully watching them skyrocket in price on the GE (they're over 3 mil apiece right now).
  • You are finding almost every update (other than WoFibc ones) aimed at your player group fun and engaging... Yes! Jagex is doing a lot of things right!

I think part of the motivation that fueled the squeal in the first place is that people often complain about "the grind." So Jagex answered that complaint by implementing a mechanism (the squeal) that lets people accelerate the levels of their choice (giving away skill lamps as a common prize).

 

That's all well and good.

 

But it's the combination of selling spins for real world money and giving away skill lamps as a common prize that's the problem.

 

Further, what's especially infuriating is the hypocrisy. Jagex screams bloody murder when people engage in RWT, yet they are running their own RWT scheme.

Edited by Fredashay

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I don't think anyone is saying that being capitalist is bad. What's bad is that the squeal is effectively RWT for skill points.

To answer your points one at a time...

  • Jagex is almost bankrupt... I don't think anyone would complain about buying spins if players couldn't essentially buy skill lamps.. Buying skill lamps for real world munny is kind'a like cheating at the game. That's what has most people pissed.
  • The Squeal is incredibly bad value for money... That's a good point. Jagex ought to make the squeal a better value so that fewer people will go to competing sites to do RWT.
  • Less than 1% of players will be able to successfully fund xp gains... Although I've never bought a spin, my character has risen several levels from exp gained from the squeal alone.
  • Yelp has recently been replaced by the sombre troll... I didn't notice that. I'll notice the next time I log in or complete a quest.
  • Should Jagex cease to make money, the game will start to decline... Then keep the squeal. Offer prizes other than lamps that are desirable. And make them tradeable! I won two of those silly fish masks from the squeal, and I'm gleefully watching them skyrocket in price on the GE (they're over 3 mil apiece right now).
  • You are finding almost every update (other than WoFibc ones) aimed at your player group fun and engaging... Yes! Jagex is doing a lot of things right!

I think part of the motivation that fueled the squeal in the first place is that people often complain about "the grind." So Jagex answered that complaint by implementing a mechanism (the squeal) that lets people accelerate the levels of their choice (giving away skill lamps as a common prize).

 

That's all well and good.

 

But it's the combination of selling spins for real world money and giving away skill lamps as a common prize that's the problem.

 

Further, what's especially infuriating is the hypocrisy. Jagex screams bloody murder when people engage in RWT, yet they are running their own RWT scheme.

Clearly, you didn't bother to read the actual post, or indeed the title, at all thoroughly. It was stated several times that this is a 'theoretical' question and that I was setting a 'premise' for the discussion: namely, that the bullet points are not necessarily true. The question was not asking you to address the bullet points or discuss them, but rather to say whether you'd keep the squeal in the imaginary circumstance that all the bullet points were 100% true. So far, your only reasoning as to why you'd ditch the squeal (if I am to give you the benefit of the doubt) is that it's 'kinda like cheating' and you don't really elucidate on that.

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I think hypothetical is a more common, and understandable word. And don't berate the guy for trying to contribute to your topic whether he fully understood what you were asking or not.

Edited by Zephyr

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I think that Jagex's overwhelmingly underhanded approach is what makes the squeal hated. If Jagex simply asked for donations, citing its financial struggles, I am more than confident that a large portion of members would be willing to help. Furthermore, the manner in which the squeal has dominated recent game updates (I think 34 of the last 70 news posts have been squeal related) is sickening to the actual adventurers. Finally, its the message that the squeal conveys. Jagex simply seems to be going in the wrong direction with this and other recent updates.

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Clearly, you didn't bother to read the actual post, or indeed the title, at all thoroughly. It was stated several times that this is a 'theoretical' question and that I was setting a 'premise' for the discussion: namely, that the bullet points are not necessarily true. The question was not asking you to address the bullet points or discuss them, but rather to say whether you'd keep the squeal in the imaginary circumstance that all the bullet points were 100% true. So far, your only reasoning as to why you'd ditch the squeal (if I am to give you the benefit of the doubt) is that it's 'kinda like cheating' and you don't really elucidate on that.

 

Well! I read your fudgeing question and answered all your fudgeing bullets carefully, making sure that I addressed them all. You don't even know the pain I went through to format it like that and make sure I addressed each of your points, just like you demanded. I tried to give you a thoughtful and detailed reply, and that's the thanks I get?!?!

 

Somebody needs to teach you some fudgeing manners!!

 

(...and I didn't really type "fudging" all those times, you @$$hat!!)

Edited by Fredashay

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Clearly, you didn't bother to read the actual post, or indeed the title, at all thoroughly. It was stated several times that this is a 'theoretical' question and that I was setting a 'premise' for the discussion: namely, that the bullet points are not necessarily true. The question was not asking you to address the bullet points or discuss them, but rather to say whether you'd keep the squeal in the imaginary circumstance that all the bullet points were 100% true. So far, your only reasoning as to why you'd ditch the squeal (if I am to give you the benefit of the doubt) is that it's 'kinda like cheating' and you don't really elucidate on that.

 

Well! I read your fudgeing question and answered all your fudgeing bullets carefully, making sure that I addressed them all. You don't even know the pain I went through to format it like that and make sure I addressed each of your points, just like you demanded. I tried to give you a thoughtful and detailed reply, and that's the thanks I get?!?!

 

Somebody needs to teach you some fudgeing manners!!

 

(...and I didn't really type "fudging" all those times, you @$$hat!!)

 

I'm sorry for my overly harsh and reactionary reply. That was unnecessary: I was just annoyed that the first reply to my post did not, in fact, understand what I was asking, something that I feel is annoying about these boards (sometimes).

 

With that said, the question didn't ask for the type of answer you gave. You addressed the points as if they were cold hard facts and gave your opinions on them: I was asking you to use those slightly untrue (unsure about the financial situation) to answer the question in bold. It was hypothetical, to use the word of a user above.

 

As for 'fudgeing', Sal's has a word filter that changes certain typed words into their more pg-13 variants. F*** is fudge, s*** is shizzle, b**** is nice doggy!, c*** is coochie, etc. Lots of things were changed to potato for April Fool's earlier this year.

Edited by Helm Lardar

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I think that Jagex's overwhelmingly underhanded approach is what makes the squeal hated. If Jagex simply asked for donations, citing its financial struggles, I am more than confident that a large portion of members would be willing to help. Furthermore, the manner in which the squeal has dominated recent game updates (I think 34 of the last 70 news posts have been squeal related) is sickening to the actual adventurers. Finally, its the message that the squeal conveys. Jagex simply seems to be going in the wrong direction with this and other recent updates.

 

 

I don't believe it was so much that Jagex's reserves were running dry and they deployed SOF to bring themselves back into the black, but instead it was the managerial takeover of IVP and their goal to maximize short term profits without much concern of the devaluing quality of the game. This is just me thinking out loud but I don't think Jagex is in any financial trouble as of now (though if their business practices keep up they are headed for trouble), so for Jagex to plea to the community for donations would put them in a very awkward position if they were in fact financially stable and are just asking for money just for the sake of profits.

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Agreed but

Assuming this bullet pointed list is/were true, do you think the SoF should be shut down or replaced?

  • Jagex is almost bankrupt, having canned 3-4 successive moneymaking attempts recently, each causing multi-million dollar losses, and is working on a fourth that will cost just as much and has not yet seen any return.

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Jagex is almost bankrupt, having canned 3-4 successive moneymaking attempts recently, each causing multi-million dollar losses, and is working on a fourth that will cost just as much and has not yet seen any return.

That's a pretty obvious tell that it won't be removed if they need money.

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Agreed but

Assuming this bullet pointed list is/were true, do you think the SoF should be shut down or replaced?

  • Jagex is almost bankrupt, having canned 3-4 successive moneymaking attempts recently, each causing multi-million dollar losses, and is working on a fourth that will cost just as much and has not yet seen any return.

 

Right, I still don't think Jagex would outright ask for donations to stay afloat, that is a pretty big bomb to drop from a well established company. I think revealing your financial woes in such a way would do more harm than the good will of a few dedicated subscribers would be willing to put forward. I say few dedicated because it takes some serious fans that put up with the poor quality of content and still thinks Jagex deserves more than a subscription fee, and mind you is old enough to even make a financial decision to do so.

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Yes I read OP but putting another slant on it while answering the key question: Assuming this bullet pointed list is/were true, do you think the SoF should be shut down or replaced?

Unfortunately for Jagex theyre working against (@ least) 3 strikes in a highly competitive & regularly changing industry;

 

1) An old (10 years+ ) game that despite regular updates & changes over the years, is still generally percieved as a classic not the "next thing" ( like MOH & Counterstrike - still alot of players but not regularly maintained apart from servers online which are generally player responsibilities)

 

2) A large gamer bias against Runescape as "a kiddies/starter MMORPG" . As in point 1 the regular maintenance & updates over the years belie this perception, giving the game a greater depth & quality than rumour, but many won't even look because of what they have read/heard.

 

3) Poor marketing positioning. Jagex/Insight Ventures still rely mainly on web based advertising & word of mouth, with some exceptions like the gamer awards & occasional TV advertising in limited countries bringing the game to the notice of those who otherwise wouldn't be aware. The only other mainstream mentions of Runescape tend to be in news articles where the slant is definitely negative (theres been a few pedophile/ scammer cases over the years) which may bring attention but usually not of the sort that is desired.

 

The SORWT SOF is an attempt to maintain cash flow from a community that is reducing with people growing up & stopping play etc with less new players coming in every year while not addressing the issues I raised above. This is a minimum expense way to try fix a problem but has been causing more instead, im not a CFO & dont have access to the books but the constant tweaks imply its not doing the job as things stand.

There are many issues with it - from the rule changes they made so obviously to make it salable (RWT! which most object to) to the way it really bears little relevance to the gameplay in general ( tacked on content was a regular early description) but its something alot of us have got used to & use on a regular basis (@ least the free dailies & skilling/killing drops) & would probably cause the rants to rise again if it was suddenly removed entirely.

 

An investment in a Real world marketing budget to address the issues I raised & (hopefully) bring in a new generation of players, or return of those that have left & could see ":thats what it's like now??" could solve the guaranteed monthly cash flow issues. Television, print & game store advertising on a large international basis wont be cheap though.

Whether this has not occured because the budget is genuinely that tight, they want to fix the game (bots) before moving ahead or they just cba to spend the money is all guesswork.

 

My preference: Wind the SOF back to free spins only, & put some thought into a marketing department - theres only so much money you can get out of the (relative) few who do play, but theres a world full of fresh pockets out there if you let them know where to come.

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I think they should limit it, as in give f2p their spin-per-day, and p2p their 2, and maybe give an option to buy a package of, say, 10 spins for however much money but you can only buy it once per week.

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Sure this is supposed to be hypothetical, but I don't know why you want to discuss a situation that is nowhere near the truth. Jagex is NOT going bankrupt, and they are NOT using the cash from the sof to keep the game afloat (and as far as I can tell the extra cash has not even increased the quality of game updates).

 

Your Mr. Coffin is completely ridiculous. Something like that is pretty much saying "The game is dying, give us money" and would deter both new and vet players from playing.

 

I see that this was posted before solomon arrived, but Jagex are 1 step removed from a cash shop. There's really no need for the wheel if they do indeed start selling items for real money. They could simply open the cash shop if financially necessary.

 

Or they could, of course, actually work on improving the game itself so people actually want to play it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your last point.

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