Religious Indoctrination

[tychobrahe07 1]

How does everyone feel about parents influencing how a child sees the world using religion? On one hand, religion teaches hope and all that cute jazz. On the other hand, some make them think that certain things are wrong (ie me, raised in a catholic family and a homosexual) and therefore are faced with a childhood struggle to fit in. Also, I thank God for food (partly out of habit) but I'm also thankful for the men and women who make it possible for me to even have food. Idk, those are just my examples and viewpoints. What's everyone else's stand on this outspoken issue?

Edited July 26, 2013 by tychobrahe07

[Guitarguy 644]

There is a balance between too little indoctrination and too much. A child who grows up without any form of spiritual guidance will almost certainly live through life without spirituality (depending on the circumstances of that child's life); whether or not the consequent absence of religion is a good thing is for another debate. On the other hand, as you mentioned, too much can be equally harmful. All people should be free to choose what religion best suits them, and geographical distinctions and limitations shouldn't deprive one of such an important aspect of life.

If a parent sends a child to school, then entirely ignores their studies all the way up to high school, chances are that the child will end up as a delinquent and live unsuccessfully. The parent must build a proper foundation before an improper one builds itself. After years of living by negligent and unproductive customs, a sudden transition in the right direction will be unlikely.

The basic solution, in my opinion, is for a parent to raise the child in some sensible religion (even if the parent doesn't want to indoctrinate the child by his or her own religion, using that religion is obviously the most convenient solution). Once the child gains freedom of thought and rationality of thought, it's time to be released. If a baptised Christian six-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should force him to. If a baptised Christian eighteen-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should let him.

[cash money95 43]

There is a balance between too little indoctrination and too much. A child who grows up without any form of spiritual guidance will almost certainly live through life without spirituality (depending on the circumstances of that child's life); whether or not the consequent absence of religion is a good thing is for another debate. On the other hand, as you mentioned, too much can be equally harmful. All people should be free to choose what religion best suits them, and geographical distinctions and limitations shouldn't deprive one of such an important aspect of life.

If a parent sends a child to school, then entirely ignores their studies all the way up to high school, chances are that the child will end up as a delinquent and live unsuccessfully. The parent must build a proper foundation before an improper one builds itself. After years of living by negligent and unproductive customs, a sudden transition in the right direction will be unlikely.

The basic solution, in my opinion, is for a parent to raise the child in some sensible religion (even if the parent doesn't want to indoctrinate the child by his or her own religion, using that religion is obviously the most convenient solution). Once the child gains freedom of thought and rationality of thought, it's time to be released. If a baptised Christian six-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should force him to. If a baptised Christian eighteen-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should let him.

 

I see what you're saying, but I partially disagree. I don't think it's completely necessary to raise a child with some religious background when they're young. I think parents who raise their kids without any religious influence, yet still let the child understand that people are free to believe what they want and such, can still raise their kids with good structure. If, like you said, a child wants to skip mass when they are six, I don't know why you would force them to go if you're going to let them skip it when they're 18.

 

Again, I understand what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I feel like everything you said could be accomplished in a household without religious influence.

[Guitarguy 644]

There is a balance between too little indoctrination and too much. A child who grows up without any form of spiritual guidance will almost certainly live through life without spirituality (depending on the circumstances of that child's life); whether or not the consequent absence of religion is a good thing is for another debate. On the other hand, as you mentioned, too much can be equally harmful. All people should be free to choose what religion best suits them, and geographical distinctions and limitations shouldn't deprive one of such an important aspect of life.

If a parent sends a child to school, then entirely ignores their studies all the way up to high school, chances are that the child will end up as a delinquent and live unsuccessfully. The parent must build a proper foundation before an improper one builds itself. After years of living by negligent and unproductive customs, a sudden transition in the right direction will be unlikely.

The basic solution, in my opinion, is for a parent to raise the child in some sensible religion (even if the parent doesn't want to indoctrinate the child by his or her own religion, using that religion is obviously the most convenient solution). Once the child gains freedom of thought and rationality of thought, it's time to be released. If a baptised Christian six-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should force him to. If a baptised Christian eighteen-year old wants to skip mass, the parents should let him.

I see what you're saying, but I partially disagree. I don't think it's completely necessary to raise a child with some religious background when they're young. I think parents who raise their kids without any religious influence, yet still let the child understand that people are free to believe what they want and such, can still raise their kids with good structure. If, like you said, a child wants to skip mass when they are six, I don't know why you would force them to go if you're going to let them skip it when they're 18.

 

Again, I understand what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I feel like everything you said could be accomplished in a household without religious influence.

It all seems to end up in a matter of trust and circumstance, I suppose. For example, for a lower class family living in an urban environment surrounded by terrible influences, then yes, a child left alone is extremely unlikely to pick up spiritual guidance. If the family is much wealthier, and the child grows up with an excellent education, experiences which permit open mindedness, and little corruption, the child is much more likely to independently find a spiritual path when left alone.

I say that a six-year old should be brought to mass even if unwillingly whereas an eighteen-year old shouldn't, because a six-year old doesn't know what's best for himself. Things would certainly be a mess if parents allowed their children to do what the child wants to do without restriction, in any aspect of life. Permitting a drug addict to do what he wants won't end well; even if the drug addict knows that doing some drugs will do more harm than good, he will probably end up doing so nonetheless unless restricted. Because the parent knows what's best for the child at six years old, the child should be restricted of independence to a certain degree. However, one of eighteen years should now have a good idea of what's best for himself, which is why he has the choice of whether or not to attend mass as well as numerous other decisions.

 

Also, here's the link to the last time this debate existed if anybody is interested.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Guitarguy

[Samsara 46]

Yeah, jumping off of what 'shu said, I think it's important to note that although religion does breed spirituality, it is not necessary to breed spirituality. Just off of that alone I fail to see why religious indoctrination is necessary.

[thepope1322 399]

Is it necessary? No. Atheists have ethics and morals too.

 

Nonetheless, some form of religious "indoctrination" is inevitable and natural. Children imitate their parents and parents are reflected on their children. There's nothing wrong with teaching your kids to go to church/the synagogue/the mosque/shrine to odin/etc.

Edited July 26, 2013 by theking1322

[reepicheep 324]

I feel that in the absence of religion there will still be said 'indoctrination' but it's simply the kind of indoctrination you wouldn't consider bad. However, I was raised Christian, and if you like, indoctrinated, but it has had no harmful effects. I was forced to go to church, sure, but my parents were okay with my questioning. Now I'm 19 and I'm still happy being Christian.

 

As with everything in parenting, it depends on how you do it. If you present the religion as the only path, you're probably doing it wrong, but there's no reason to teach your child about every single religion. This is especially true considering a religion like Christianity is fairly clear about what is 'necessary' to get to heaven. Of course, God has the final say but the bible is clear about the fact that we can only come to God through Jesus. In other words, if your children don't grow up Christian, there is a good chance you don't see them in heaven. That would suck for any parent.

Edited July 26, 2013 by reepicheep

[tychobrahe07 1]

See that's what I was thinking. The way I would raise my future children is to let them know there are many faiths out there and they're free to choose whatever as long as they're not screwing around and treat everyone else with respect. Honestly I think that's where some religious parents kinda go wrong.

[Luvandpower 17]

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and about seven years ago my dad started having some personal issues with the church pastor at that particular church. So until probably I'd say last year/year before that we were church hopping trying to find the right one that fit our needs. In the time of church hopping I came to realize how different each and every single church is. I came to realize just how very little in similarity church views were compared to others.

 

Due to those events I have now come to form my own "opinion" of how I believe a Christian should lead their life and am still searching for a church that sees things my way.

 

As far as how I feel about family/parents forcing a specific religion down a child's throat while I don't approve of it, there really isn't much that can be done about it. Everyone has to start somewhere. I wish more families would be more open minded about letting their children learn and find out what they really believe.

[thepope1322 399]

Of course, God has the final say but the bible is clear about the fact that we can only come to God through Jesus. In other words, if your children don't grow up Christian, there is a good chance you don't see them in heaven. That would suck for any parent.

 

I think the abrahamic God would prefer it if people raised their children to act like decent human beings rather than self-righteous pricks.

Edited July 26, 2013 by theking1322

[Sobend 959]

I hate the word "indoctrination" being used here. It is too synonymous with brainwash or propagandize. Just because you are raised in a religious household does not mean you are being indoctrinated, just like if you are raised in an atheist household you are also necessarily not being indoctrinated.

[tychobrahe07 1]

I hate the word "indoctrination" being used here. It is too synonymous with brainwash or propagandize. Just because you are raised in a religious household does not mean you are being indoctrinated, just like if you are raised in an atheist household you are also necessarily not being indoctrinated.

 

I was raised to think gays weren't accepted and I used to cry myself to sleep all the time because I was pretty sure I was. Does that sound propaganda-y to you? Maybe if I told you that my friend (who has very Mormon parents) really believes that Jesus Christ was actually in America, would that make you realize the purpose of this thread? We're not necessarily talking about just being raised religiously but about having a religion forced onto you as a child. Or at least that's how I see things.

 

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and about seven years ago my dad started having some personal issues with the church pastor at that particular church. So until probably I'd say last year/year before that we were church hopping trying to find the right one that fit our needs. In the time of church hopping I came to realize how different each and every single church is. I came to realize just how very little in similarity church views were compared to others.

 

Due to those events I have now come to form my own "opinion" of how I believe a Christian should lead their life and am still searching for a church that sees things my way.

 

As far as how I feel about family/parents forcing a specific religion down a child's throat while I don't approve of it, there really isn't much that can be done about it. Everyone has to start somewhere. I wish more families would be more open minded about letting their children learn and find out what they really believe.

Basically what I was thinking. Digging your thought process, man. :)

[reepicheep 324]

Of course, God has the final say but the bible is clear about the fact that we can only come to God through Jesus. In other words, if your children don't grow up Christian, there is a good chance you don't see them in heaven. That would suck for any parent.

Gotta love religious self-perpetuation through fear.

It's not nearly as if that would be the only reason to bring up your child with a religion, it's just a consequence of not allowing it. If I asked my parents why they raised me religiously I'm know they wouldn't tell me they did it because I wouldn't go to heaven otherwise.

 

Of course, God has the final say but the bible is clear about the fact that we can only come to God through Jesus. In other words, if your children don't grow up Christian, there is a good chance you don't see them in heaven. That would suck for any parent.

I think the abrahamic God would prefer it if people raised their children to act like decent human beings rather than self-righteous pricks.

I don't see how the two would be mutually exclusive. Self-righteous pricks exist everywhere, in atheism as well. That doesn't have anything to do with the religion.

 

I hate the word "indoctrination" being used here. It is too synonymous with brainwash or propagandize. Just because you are raised in a religious household does not mean you are being indoctrinated, just like if you are raised in an atheist household you are also necessarily not being indoctrinated.

I was raised to think gays weren't accepted and I used to cry myself to sleep all the time because I was pretty sure I was. Does that sound propaganda-y to you? Maybe if I told you that my friend (who has very Mormon parents) really believes that Jesus Christ was actually in America, would that make you realize the purpose of this thread? We're not necessarily talking about just being raised religiously but about having a religion forced onto you as a child. Or at least that's how I see things.

I absolutely know what this is about and what you are talking about isn't a good thing. However, forcing things down their children's throats is up to the parents, not the religion. Either way, the fact that some denominations teach that homosexuality is something demonic doesn't suggest that all denominations do it. I have one thing to say to denominations that do, and that would be that suggesting such nonsense is against everything Jesus taught us (ie. love). Nevertheless, I know that my mom is not against homosexuality is not against homosexuality and my dad is more hesitant, but they never taught me to believe that gay people would go to hell, much less to hate them. They allowed me to form my opinion.

 

Also Mormons are relatively more removed from Christianity than most denominations, seeing as they have an extra holy book that is more important than the bible. Plus I'm fairly sure Mormons don't believe Jesus is in America :s Regardless, I'm not sure why it matters to anybody that they would believe Jesus is in America, seeing as it doesn't affect anybody? I disagree but I find it hard to care very much about it.

Edited July 28, 2013 by reepicheep

[Phoenix Rider 221]

There comes a point in you're life when you stop viewing at your parents as infallible and perfect and start questioning their knowledge, decisions and views. That includes religious views. It's a natural part of being a teen and one every well-raised person goes through, religious or not. It's one I, a practising and faithful Roman Catholic, has gone through and continue to go through. After that, whatever world-view you hold are no longer that chosen by your parents but one you have chosen yourself.

 

If you don't go through that questioning process, there's two people you can blame. One is your parents for not raising you in a thinking and open minded environment (and to be fair, that's not really religion's fault but more on bad parenting style.) The other is yourself for not thinking enough.

 

You can't really blame parents for teaching their kids about their faith. Parents have the responsibility to teach their kids the good and the true and if they found that in a faith or belief, they're justified in teaching that faith.

[tychobrahe07 1]

 

I absolutely know what this is about and what you are talking about isn't a good thing. However, forcing things down their children's throats is up to the parents, not the religion. Either way, the fact that some denominations teach that homosexuality is something demonic doesn't suggest that all denominations do it. I have one thing to say to denominations that do, and that would be that suggesting such nonsense is against everything Jesus taught us (ie. love). Nevertheless, I know that my mom is not against homosexuality is not against homosexuality and my dad is more hesitant, but they never taught me to believe that gay people would go to hell, much less to hate them. They allowed me to form my opinion.

 

Also Mormons are relatively more removed from Christianity than most denominations, seeing as they have an extra holy book that is more important than the bible. Plus I'm fairly sure Mormons don't believe Jesus is in America :s Regardless, I'm not sure why it matters to anybody that they would believe Jesus is in America, seeing as it doesn't affect anybody? I disagree but I find it hard to care very much about it.

 

Eh I understand your point. Maybe as someone who's kinda affected by this issue I tend to find ways to prove people wrong that are totally bs. I just don't understand why you said "I know what you're talking about and it isn't a good thing." :/

[reepicheep 324]

I absolutely know what this is about and what you are talking about isn't a good thing. However, forcing things down their children's throats is up to the parents, not the religion. Either way, the fact that some denominations teach that homosexuality is something demonic doesn't suggest that all denominations do it. I have one thing to say to denominations that do, and that would be that suggesting such nonsense is against everything Jesus taught us (ie. love). Nevertheless, I know that my mom is not against homosexuality is not against homosexuality and my dad is more hesitant, but they never taught me to believe that gay people would go to hell, much less to hate them. They allowed me to form my opinion.

 

Also Mormons are relatively more removed from Christianity than most denominations, seeing as they have an extra holy book that is more important than the bible. Plus I'm fairly sure Mormons don't believe Jesus is in America :s Regardless, I'm not sure why it matters to anybody that they would believe Jesus is in America, seeing as it doesn't affect anybody? I disagree but I find it hard to care very much about it.

 

Eh I understand your point. Maybe as someone who's kinda affected by this issue I tend to find ways to prove people wrong that are totally bs. I just don't understand why you said "I know what you're talking about and it isn't a good thing." :/

Religious indoctrination by way of forcing it down your children's throats is a bad thing. I've seen it before and it's not good, I agree. My point is simply that the indoctrination itself is not the issue but rather the method.

[Luvandpower 17]

There comes a point in you're life when you stop viewing at your parents as infallible and perfect and start questioning their knowledge, decisions and views. That includes religious views. It's a natural part of being a teen and one every well-raised person goes through, religious or not. It's one I, a practising and faithful Roman Catholic, has gone through and continue to go through. After that, whatever world-view you hold are no longer that chosen by your parents but one you have chosen yourself.

 

If you don't go through that questioning process, there's two people you can blame. One is your parents for not raising you in a thinking and open minded environment (and to be fair, that's not really religion's fault but more on bad parenting style.) The other is yourself for not thinking enough.

 

You can't really blame parents for teaching their kids about their faith. Parents have the responsibility to teach their kids the good and the true and if they found that in a faith or belief, they're justified in teaching that faith.

 

I agree to a certain extent. It's on the child to take the step to try something new, a parent can only teach you what they were taught/believe their own self.

 

Here is my thing though the parent has to let the child know that he/she is allowed to "walk the borders" to learn/figure out more.

[reepicheep 324]

How do you simultaneously 1) Say this is what I believe 2) Say if you don't believe it you'll go to hell and 3) Say there are other viable options 4) But those are other options aren't right?

 

I really dislike religious upbringings >_< There was a whole lot of angst and confusion in my childhood over this. It made me feel isolated, wrong, immoral, disgusting, and afraid. I mean really, from a psychological standpoint, what separates a religious upbringing from a cult brainwashing children into joining them? A lot of research done by Maragaret Singer and Janja Lalich says there is no difference. Is this really healthy, and truly advantageous to the well-being of a child? How can religious folks criticize stuff like Scientology or people like Jim Jones when they're using the same techniques?

I think one big problem in this debate is that some people (like you and the OP) have been hurt by religious upbringing, while on the other hand I, for example, have not.

 

Anyway, to answer your questions: you say what you believe but you don't put any pressure on your children, especially when it comes to going to hell. You can teach your children religion positively and negatively (obviously oversimplifying but I think you get the point); you can teach them that the religion tells them they should be kind to one another and that they should believe because that's what God wants, and you can tell them that if they don't follow the rules they're going to go to hell. Of course the matter of hell is going to come up, but there's different ways, here again, of explaining it. It's very much possible, I think, to explain the concept of hell without immediately pressuring your children into believing they'll go there with the slightest mistake. 3 and 4 can be done in much the same way - no pressure but tell them that that's what you believe.

 

My religious upbringing has always been positive and I think it has made me a better person. And no I'm not saying a religious upbringing is required or will necessarily lead to being a better person, but in my case I've never felt negatively from it.

 

Comparing Christianity, a completely open religion where you know what you get and don't have to do anything but believe, to Scientology where the entire thing is shrouded in secrecy and where you're hardly free to believe in anything else once you've joined is I think not one you can make. There isn't a Christian I know that would keep me from believing what I wanted. Sure, my family would be sad if I decided to quit believing, but there is no pressure here, no threats. You use the word 'techniques' as if there is a special form of teaching passed down from father to son on how to best indoctrinate your children, when all it usually is is parents teaching children their beliefs.

[Adam? 539]

How do you simultaneously 1) Say this is what I believe 2) Say if you don't believe it you'll go to hell and 3) Say there are other viable options 4) But those are other options aren't right?

 

I really dislike religious upbringings >_< There was a whole lot of angst and confusion in my childhood over this. It made me feel isolated, wrong, immoral, disgusting, and afraid. I mean really, from a psychological standpoint, what separates a religious upbringing from a cult brainwashing children into joining them? A lot of research done by Maragaret Singer and Janja Lalich says there is no difference. Is this really healthy, and truly advantageous to the well-being of a child? How can religious folks criticize stuff like Scientology or people like Jim Jones when they're using the same techniques?

I think one big problem in this debate is that some people (like you and the OP) have been hurt by religious upbringing, while on the other hand I, for example, have not.

 

Anyway, to answer your questions: you say what you believe but you don't put any pressure on your children, especially when it comes to going to hell. You can teach your children religion positively and negatively (obviously oversimplifying but I think you get the point); you can teach them that the religion tells them they should be kind to one another and that they should believe because that's what God wants, and you can tell them that if they don't follow the rules they're going to go to hell. Of course the matter of hell is going to come up, but there's different ways, here again, of explaining it. It's very much possible, I think, to explain the concept of hell without immediately pressuring your children into believing they'll go there with the slightest mistake. 3 and 4 can be done in much the same way - no pressure but tell them that that's what you believe.

 

My religious upbringing has always been positive and I think it has made me a better person. And no I'm not saying a religious upbringing is required or will necessarily lead to being a better person, but in my case I've never felt negatively from it.

 

Comparing Christianity, a completely open religion where you know what you get and don't have to do anything but believe, to Scientology where the entire thing is shrouded in secrecy and where you're hardly free to believe in anything else once you've joined is I think not one you can make. There isn't a Christian I know that would keep me from believing what I wanted. Sure, my family would be sad if I decided to quit believing, but there is no pressure here, no threats. You use the word 'techniques' as if there is a special form of teaching passed down from father to son on how to best indoctrinate your children, when all it usually is is parents teaching children their beliefs.

I'm sorry, but there's no way to teach a child the concept of eternal damnation in a positive manner unless you completely rework the accepted version of Hell. Religion is an easy moral code to teach children, but it's rooted in fear and loses its potency as soon as you take Hell out of the picture. Why should you do this? Because you'll go to Hell if you don't. Why should you do this? Because it's the right thing to do. Remove Hell from the picture and religious values suddenly lose all value compared to simply teaching a secular moral code.

 

And yes, a problem with this debate is that you haven't had bad experiences with religion whereas someone like Lilshu has had awful experiences. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assertion that your family would just be sad if you became an open atheist, because I went through the experience myself. My family is not intensely religious, and we stopped going to Church years ago. However, once I actually let on that I didn't believe in God, it was like I had betrayed the family. My mom claimed she had failed as a mother, my father was irritable, and my parents would both snap at me if the concept of religion ever came up around my siblings, fearing I would trick them into becoming atheists. It's gotten better, but that's mostly because we don't talk about it around each other. You can't speak to this since you have zero experience with it yourself (I'm assuming).

 

Also, Christianity is open because it's considered an acceptable belief system. Scientology is not, but don't put your own belief system arbitrarily above another's simply because yours has tenure.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Adam?

[reepicheep 324]

How do you simultaneously 1) Say this is what I believe 2) Say if you don't believe it you'll go to hell and 3) Say there are other viable options 4) But those are other options aren't right?

 

I really dislike religious upbringings >_< There was a whole lot of angst and confusion in my childhood over this. It made me feel isolated, wrong, immoral, disgusting, and afraid. I mean really, from a psychological standpoint, what separates a religious upbringing from a cult brainwashing children into joining them? A lot of research done by Maragaret Singer and Janja Lalich says there is no difference. Is this really healthy, and truly advantageous to the well-being of a child? How can religious folks criticize stuff like Scientology or people like Jim Jones when they're using the same techniques?

I think one big problem in this debate is that some people (like you and the OP) have been hurt by religious upbringing, while on the other hand I, for example, have not.

 

Anyway, to answer your questions: you say what you believe but you don't put any pressure on your children, especially when it comes to going to hell. You can teach your children religion positively and negatively (obviously oversimplifying but I think you get the point); you can teach them that the religion tells them they should be kind to one another and that they should believe because that's what God wants, and you can tell them that if they don't follow the rules they're going to go to hell. Of course the matter of hell is going to come up, but there's different ways, here again, of explaining it. It's very much possible, I think, to explain the concept of hell without immediately pressuring your children into believing they'll go there with the slightest mistake. 3 and 4 can be done in much the same way - no pressure but tell them that that's what you believe.

 

My religious upbringing has always been positive and I think it has made me a better person. And no I'm not saying a religious upbringing is required or will necessarily lead to being a better person, but in my case I've never felt negatively from it.

 

Comparing Christianity, a completely open religion where you know what you get and don't have to do anything but believe, to Scientology where the entire thing is shrouded in secrecy and where you're hardly free to believe in anything else once you've joined is I think not one you can make. There isn't a Christian I know that would keep me from believing what I wanted. Sure, my family would be sad if I decided to quit believing, but there is no pressure here, no threats. You use the word 'techniques' as if there is a special form of teaching passed down from father to son on how to best indoctrinate your children, when all it usually is is parents teaching children their beliefs.

I'm sorry, but there's no way to teach a child the concept of eternal damnation in a positive manner unless you completely rework the accepted version of Hell. Religion is an easy moral code to teach children, but it's rooted in fear and loses its potency as soon as you take Hell out of the picture. Why should you do this? Because you'll go to Hell if you don't. Why should you do this? Because it's the right thing to do. Remove Hell from the picture and religious values suddenly lose all its value compared to simply teaching a basic moral code.

 

And yes, a problem with this debate is that you haven't had bad experiences with religion whereas someone like Lilshu has had awful experiences. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assertion that your family would just be sad if you became an open atheist, because I went through the experience myself. My family is not intensely religious, and we stopped going to Church years ago. However, once I actually let on that I didn't believe in God, it was like I had betrayed the family. My mom claimed she had failed as a mother, my father was irritable, and my parents would both snap at me if the concept of religion ever came up around them. It's gotten better, but that's mostly because we don't talk about it around each other. You can't speak to this since you have zero experience with it yourself (I'm assuming).

 

Also, Christianity is open because it's considered an acceptable belief system. Scientology is not, but don't put your own belief system arbitrarily above another's simply because yours has tenure.

Regarding the first paragraph: providing more value than a basic moral code isn't necessarily the goal here. And look, perhaps I was wrong. But I have learned plenty about the concept of eternal damnation, and whenever I had trouble with my parents' explanation of it, they were okay with it. They were fine with the fact that I didn't (and perhaps still don't) understand it, and they let me think about it myself. They've always been this way. I don't think there's anything more I can say about this, except for that I have never experienced bad things with my religious upbringing, besides at most the boredom of church at times.

I do have experience with this, actually (though it wasn't as close to me). My uncle became atheist a few years ago. Back then I was little and didn't think too much about it, but it's obvious now that it hurt my grandparents especially - I wouldn't say they felt betrayed, but it hurt them. You were right, I was too quick to say my parents would merely be sad. My guess is that they would not be angry, but there is no point in guessing, I suppose, because I don't know. What I do know is that it wouldn't stop me from turning to atheism, or another religion.

Could you argue a case that Scientology should be equally accepted as religion? This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one.

[reepicheep 324]

But I have learned plenty about the concept of eternal damnation, and whenever I had trouble with my parents' explanation of it, they were okay with it. They were fine with the fact that I didn't (and perhaps still don't) understand it, and they let me think about it myself.

It's not explaining it that is the issue- how do you expect someone to make a conscientious choice when they're told all their life that the only way they'll get into heaven is to do this and believe this, otherwise they're going to burn in hell for eternity? It's using fear to persuade naive individuals into buying into a larger group. It's one of the basics of cult indoctrination. Also, how is this at all healthy to a child's ability to choose what they believe? Reepicheep, if you were born in a society where you were a Scientologist, or else, what do you think you'd be believing right now? Did you choose to become a Scientologist, or was it forced on you with brainwashing?

 

Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that are intended to create meaning to life or traditionally to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, they tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle.

How is Scientology not a religion?

I think that making a conscientious choice isn't difficult per se. Either you believe in God and thus in hell, or you don't believe in God and you don't believe in hell. You made a conscientious choice just fine, it seems, and so did I? Or am I missing something? :s

 

You make an interesting point there. Look, maybe it's just me but when I look at Scientology and another accepted religion, I don't see two things that are the same. I just don't. Maybe I need to change my way of thinking but given the church's conduct I find it hard to take it seriously. And yes, I know that the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is. Here it simply seems that the concept behind Scientology is flawed by itself. If you see a Christian taking money for a service like forgiveness, you think that that is not okay. When you see it with Scientology you think that that is part of the religion.

[Adam? 539]

You make an interesting point there. Look, maybe it's just me but when I look at Scientology and another accepted religion, I don't see two things that are the same. I just don't. Maybe I need to change my way of thinking but given the church's conduct I find it hard to take it seriously. And yes, I know that the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is.

the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is.

 

And I'm out.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Adam?

[reepicheep 324]

You made a conscientious choice just fine, it seems, and so did I? Or am I missing something?

Did you miss everything I said about my childhood?

 

Look, maybe it's just me but when I look at Scientology and another accepted religion, I don't see two things that are the same. I just don't. Maybe I need to change my way of thinking but given the church's conduct I find it hard to take it seriously. And yes, I know that the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is. Here it simply seems that the concept behind Scientology is flawed by itself. If you see a Christian taking money for a service like forgiveness, you think that that is not okay. When you see it with Scientology you think that that is part of the religion.

And it's this kind of post that demonstrates the difficulty of a child being a different religion than their parent. "You can believe what you want, but your beliefs are flawed and incorrect." Different does not mean wrong.

All I'm saying is that ultimately you did make a conscientious choice - but you're right. I find it hard to think like you do (and it shows), because I just haven't had the same experiences. I feel more or less comfortable with making a different choice from my parents, though if it came to a matter of changing religion entirely I'd be more hesitant to tell them, perhaps.

And different doesn't always mean wrong, but the bible is clear about Jesus being the only way. I absolutely respect other religions but that doesn't mean I agree with them - and for a lot of religions it's the same.

You make an interesting point there. Look, maybe it's just me but when I look at Scientology and another accepted religion, I don't see two things that are the same. I just don't. Maybe I need to change my way of thinking but given the church's conduct I find it hard to take it seriously. And yes, I know that the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is.

the Christian church is far from perfect but the concept behind it is.

 

And I'm out.

I would never suggest Christians are perfect, but I'm saying that the concept behind Christianity is different from Scientology.

[Adam? 539]

I would never suggest Christians are perfect, but I'm saying that the concept behind Christianity is different from Scientology.

You aren't suggesting it's different; you're suggesting it's inferior.

 

All I'm saying is that ultimately you did make a conscientious choice - but you're right. I find it hard to think like you do (and it shows), because I just haven't had the same experiences. I feel more or less comfortable with making a different choice from my parents, though if it came to a matter of changing religion entirely I'd be more hesitant to tell them, perhaps. And different doesn't always mean wrong, but the bible is clear about Jesus being the only way. I absolutely respect other religions but that doesn't mean I agree with them - and for a lot of religions it's the same.

See, THIS is what drives me insane. Telling a child it's the only way to go to heaven is not a choice.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Adam?

[reepicheep 324]

I would never suggest Christians are perfect, but I'm saying that the concept behind Christianity is different from Scientology.

You aren't suggesting it's different; you're suggesting it's inferior.

I am suggesting it is inferior because the concept behind it requires people to pay money, whereas in Christianity it's the people that take money when it's not necessary, not the concept behind it.

See, THIS is what drives me insane. Telling a child it's the only way to go to heaven is not a choice.

That depends on perspective. I do feel like my belief is a choice, others may see that differently.

Edited July 29, 2013 by reepicheep