Switching Back to the 138 Combat Calculation is a HORRIBLE Idea

[Sobend]

Introduction

Did you know that poking around the foundation of the of the old combat scaling system reveals massive imperfections in the heart of the calculation? For example, did you know that the old combat system would skew the strength towards a combat class, leaving an uneven matchup in combat prowess that would plague players for years?

Do you even know what the purpose of the combat calculation is?

 

The Obligatory Rant

The reason for this editorial is the most recent "dragonstone" poll. For those who have not kept up with the recent poll news, there is a poll out letting players vote for either a 138 combat level calculation (the same one that existed before EOC) and the current 200 combat level calculation. When I heard the news, I cried. No, I’m serious. I ran up to my room, put my head in my pillow, and wept at the loss of my innocence that I first found while reading Anne of Green Gables.

 

Okay, I didn’t cry. But I was pretty mad. I knew the 138 combat calculation would win and so far I am right. Currently, on the morning of February 15th EST, the 138 combat calculation is winning, 71% to 29%. The worst part is that it’s winning for all of the wrong reasons. Reason being is that every way you look at it the current system is better than the old one.

 

To find the reasons as to why this is, we need to go back to the beginnings of Runescape. As most of you know, Runescape began as quite a different game than it is today. A blend of 2d and 3d graphics, relatively slow movement speed, and a different combat system. When players today think of the Runescape classic combat system, they generally think of the three hit combat system. This means that you must take three hits from your opponent before you can retreat, as opposed to Runescape 2 or 3 where you can run away whenever you’d like. However, the differences in combat lie farther than three hit combat.

 

 

In the original game, melee was the primary form of combat. This was because all of the other combat styles, magic and ranged, were generally underdeveloped. Ranged was completely underdeveloped; there was little in the form of range armor and ranged was rarely used in a PvP sense. Magic had similar drawbacks. When a player failed to cast a spell, the player had to wait 20 seconds before he/she could cast it again. Magic was also tough to train; the lack of the Runecrafting skill made runes expensive. Although magic gained some more credence when the god spells came out, magic for the most part was nothing more than a complement to melee. Understandably, in Runescape Classic Attack and Strength were favored more into the combat calculation than Ranged and Magic.

 

In Runescape Classic, the maximum combat level was 123. When the change to Runescape 2 was made, little was done to alter the combat calculation. Prayer was given more of a factor into the calculation, thus the maximum combat level raised to 126. Magic and ranged were not favored more or less in the calculation. However, in the actual combat system they were. Magic and ranged became their own distinct class. With the release of updates from the spring of 2004 to the spring of 2005, magic and ranged were given high tier armours, new attack options (i.e. the Ancient Magicks Spell Book), a protect from melee prayer, better access to arrows and runes, and much more. This increased the power of these classes and they arguably became on par with the melee class. However, the calculation remained the same. This allowed for a maxed ranged or magic player (let’s say with 99 Defense and 99 Ranged/Maged) to be level 100-110, while and maxed melee player to be around level 120. (These numbers are estimates of course, as they don’t take into account prayer or hitpoints). This would allow Ranged or Magic players to have a significant advantage over Melee players in PvP settings.

 

Now we skip eight or so years and move to the Evolution of Combat update. The update rebalances the combat triangle. Now the three combat classes are no longer “arguably equal;” they are undeniably balanced. With this, the Jagex developers decided to ditch the 138 formula (the maximum combat level increased from 126 to 138 with the release of Summoning) and install the current/past (depending on how far into the future you read this) combat formula. The 200 formula treats the classes as equal. For instance, a player with 99 Ranged and 99 Defence would have the same combat level as a player with 99 Magic and 99 Defence. Problem fixed, right?

 

Pretty much. The 200 system is not perfect (the biggest issue with it is that prayer is not taken into account) however it trumps the previous system in scaling players. However, the 200 calculation had something going against it that it simply cannot dodge – nostalgia.

 

The poll responses have largely been fueled by nostalgia. Players grew up with a certain combat calculations and want to see it continued. However, nostalgia is never a good reason to implement anything. There are other reasons for voting for the 138 that aren’t directly nostalgia related. One is familiarity, which I find odd considering the 200 calculation has been in the game for well over a year now. The next is pures, which makes little sense. Pures were not ruined because of the combat scaling system but because they could not wear the hitpoint boosting armour their high defence opponents had. The final is that it will give maxed combat more prestige. While this is true, a combat level is not meant to be an indicator of how hard someone has worked on their account. It is an indicator of account strength. The 138 system would not only fail to do that well in the new combat system, it failed to do it in the past combat system. That's probably why "It scales players well" is not an option on the RSOF topic where players discuss what they like about the 138 calculation.

 

 

Not only is the 200 formula scale players well, it is pretty simple to calculate. If you gain another defence level for instance, you are going to know what combat level you will be. Also, by looking at another’s combat level, you should be able to figure out the ballpark of the player’s stats.

 

After you take all of the above into account, I am not sure how you could argue that the 138 combat calculation does a better job at what is is supposed to do than the 200 calculation, especially in the current EOC system.

 

A Possible Saving Grace

At the end of this editorial, it is important to note something important. When/if the 138 calculation wins, Jagex will create another poll, giving players the option to change the 138 calculation. This possibly could prevent the issue discussed above. The system however would have to be changed drastically. Hitpoints would have to have very little effect on the calculation and Attack and Strength would have to be scaled to Ranged and Magic. Will this poll to change the combat system succeed in solving the issue? We don't know, but probably not. As stated before, nostalgia plays a large role in people's decisions. They want the old calculation back, not an entirely new one. Even if the players voted yes to a change, we would not have that much influence in what gets changed and what does not. This takes some power out of the players' hands. Not that I mind that. It is the reason we are here in the first place.

 

Discuss this editorial right here in this topic!

Edited February 19, 2014 by Sobend

[Shooter585]

If 138 were to be implemented, there would either have to be major changes to the old formula or major changes to the combat system (already planned). I don't know why you would do either, because as far as I know legacy is going to keep range and magic with parity to melee.

 

A maxed range tank was unfairly stacked in the old combat system, and I don't know how they'll fix this. 99 range and 99 defense, plus melee stats up to 150 for the 2h combo was dominant in a freeplay environment because you'd be ~107 combat (depending on prayer). With the strengthened armors, magic would probably be the same way.

 

The good thing about the old combat system is that there would be less maxed people. I don't like going to Castle Wars and see half the people at level 200 combat. Doesn't make anything interesting. Even with a combat rebalance, everybody would still be stacked towards the top. It would only solve the problem aesthetically, and even then it wouldn't make much of a difference.

[Mohorak]

I prefer the 138 system in non-PK environments because it's more accurate about how a player has trained their combat stats.

[Shooter585]

I prefer the 138 system in non-PK environments because it's more accurate about how a player has trained their combat stats.

I do too, in non-pk environments. But it really only matters in pking environments, and (in this combat system) 200 is a better indicator of strength I think.

[Mohorak]

I prefer the 138 system in non-PK environments because it's more accurate about how a player has trained their combat stats.

I do too, in non-pk environments. But it really only matters in pking environments, and (in this combat system) 200 is a better indicator of strength I think.

 

That's true. I don't have a lot of experience in PvP, so all I'm concerned about is looks and monsters being too afraid to touch me.

[NoSouls]

I like the idea of 256, because I love computers. ;)

 

Anyways, keep the 200 or higher, I agree.

 

One day, we should make our own RuneScape remake. Everyone unite and let's get a development team together and make the RuneScape that we want. We shall call it Relic Runes (unless anyone can suggest a better name in INBOX).

 

Let's make it an open-source community project! Screw corporate Jagex, imagine a fully free-to-play that is voluntarily hosted. I will not hijack this thread though, so just inbox me if anyone is serious about making a delicious game that competes with RuneScape and is 100% free.

Edited February 19, 2014 by NoSouls

[Fabio]

something new > 138 > 200 !!!

[Amber Pyre]

They should have just given it 3 options, one for the 138, one for 200, and one for something completely different.

I don't know why they're wasting time doing the "fix this crap" poll AFTER 3 quarters of everyone break it.

[Shooter585]

I like the idea of 256, because I love computers. ;)

 

Anyways, keep the 200 or higher, I agree.

 

One day, we should make our own RuneScape remake. Everyone unite and let's get a development team together and make the RuneScape that we want. We shall call it Relic Runes (unless anyone can suggest a better name in INBOX).

 

Let's make it an open-source community project! Screw corporate Jagex, imagine a fully free-to-play that is voluntarily hosted. I will not hijack this thread though, so just inbox me if anyone is serious about making a delicious game that competes with RuneScape and is 100% free.

That's been tried before. It was the precursor to Old School Runescape, based in 2006. It was shut down due to copyright infringement.

 

I would also not really mind something completely new either.

[Hunter]

I agree with you.

 

But we will not win.

[Sobend]

I prefer the 138 system in non-PK environments because it's more accurate about how a player has trained their combat stats.

I agree that the prestige of it is nice, but like I said that's not the purpose of the calculation.

 

And I am glad to have my topic graced by the presence of NoSouls :) :P

Edited February 19, 2014 by Sobend

[rocpete]

To be honest I believe both systems are messed up and while you made some good arguments, I would argue that the 200cb system is actually less balanced then the old system. Right now if you have 99 defense and 99 summoning you have 200cb, if you fight someone with 99 strength, attack, and defense you really don't have much of a chance. the old system at least gave you an idea of how good the person was. being max cb factored in all your skills not just two and I think the best solution would be to have something similar to the old system but balance out the way its calculated better.

[Sobend]

To be honest I believe both systems are messed up and while you made some good arguments, I would argue that the 200cb system is actually less balanced then the old system. Right now if you have 99 defense and 99 summoning you have 200cb, if you fight someone with 99 strength, attack, and defense you really don't have much of a chance. the old system at least gave you an idea of how good the person was. being max cb factored in all your skills not just two and I think the best solution would be to have something similar to the old system but balance out the way its calculated better.

That's the only flaw in the system (the 99 summoning/defence), and considering very few people (if any) are going to be like that it's pretty much irrelevant.

 

I agree that the 200 calculation isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than the past one. Especially considering hitpoints is nearly irrelevant and the classes are officially balanced.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Sobend

[Shooter585]

Summoning is an offensive stat? Should be worth as much as prayer (nothing), again it's not going to have a huge impact though.

[Jna]

I've always looked at it from the prestige point of view and never really thought about everything you mention. Thinking about it the 200 formula is probably better but since I don't PVP i guess it doesn't really matter much to me. I guess I'll just wait and see what Jagex can come up with to modify the 138 formula.

[Azarath]

I think Herblore should be counted in some way as well, as things are atm herb is as much a modifier as prayer. With how weak familiars are atm summoning shouldn't even be considered as a combat skill.

[Shooter585]

Herblore probably shouldn't factor at all unless you are planning on doing some advanced scaling thing. I'm ~55 herblore, which does not give me any advantages that I'm aware of over someone with 1 herblore.

[Sobend]

Well you can't bring exts into PvP, so that's a start. But I agree with Azarath that herblore gives so much of a boost that it could be potentially considered a combat skill. Combat calculations are never going to be perfect; gear and such are important factors as well.

[Jna]

You can use extremes and overloads in wildy since EOC.

[Shooter585]

Well, if it were to be factored into combat, it should only be factored into combat after the level you can make those. Maybe it should only be included if you have them on your person too (sort of like how summoning used to be).

[Sobend]

It appears I lost the argument, however at least Jagex scaled mage and range with melee.

 

Unpinned

Edited March 7, 2014 by Sobend

[Leo]

I hope they make Strength useful again when this is released into the game, otherwise it'll mean nothing in calculating combat level.

[Clapster]

I say based on the combat skills (Attack, Strength, Defence, Magic, and Ranged) having add all those 5 up being a total combat level of 495 (99 * 5)..

 

 

Just kidding, It doesn't really matter to me. I'm not a PKer, nor do I ever really intend to PK, but If I were to choose, I'd have to go with the level 200 combat calculation, as I like a more rounded number.