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William Howard Taft

Malaysia Airlines flight shot down over Ukraine

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Using the BBC link

 

Basics: Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 took off from Schiphol in Amsterdam en route to Kuala Lumpur. The aircraft was shot down by as-yet unidentified ground-launched missiles--there is currently no evidence of Ukrainian aircraft flying in the region. The most likely type of missile used was a Russian-made SA-11/Buk missile, and the only Buks in the area were formerly Ukrainian but captured by Donbass rebels on the 29th of last month.

 

At present, it appears that in an attempt to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian transport plane, pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine have mistakenly shot down a civilian airliner, killing 298 passengers and crew, among them over 170 Dutch nationals and at least one American.

 

The situation has brought political tensions in Ukraine to a head, with more ferocious anti-Russian protests.

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As most things that make world headlines in today's day and age, it's impossible ever to tell what is really going on, i can only take all articles and online sources with a grain of salt, and hope for the best for the families of the fallen. Truly tragic regardless who is responsible.

Edited by Iamyouronly

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This is truly tragic and appears to be an accidental shootdown by the rebels. If it is proven without a doubt that it is the rebels this will be the moment they look back on as the day they lost the Ukrainian Civil War. There is still a lot up in the air and I hope a thorough investigation is completed and that Russia and the US actually release the truth not their version of it. If the Ukranians KNEW the rebels had a BUK why did they blame Russia on Monday for shooting down their transport plane at 7,000 feet saying the rebels did not have the capability to shoot planes that high. Then three days later the rebels are shooting down a passenger plane at 32,000 feet. I do agree that it is most likely the rebels but its still mind boggling that someone could confuse a transport plane with an airline. Also why did Ukrainian Traffic Control divert the plane into an area where THREE days prior their plane got shot down. Why did Malaysian Airlines fly any way it seems common sense to avoid conflict zones where planes have a tendency to be shot down. It is such a horrible tragedy that around 300 people innocent of this mess had to die because the rebels are too stupid to tell a military transport plane from an airline and because Ukrainian Air Traffic diverted the plane into Donentsk air space. What is most tragic is that it could have been avoided and 300 people could still be alive.

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Well now I know never to fly Malaysian Air. First they lose a plane and claim it crashed and found debris 2000+ miles away from its destination (idk the actual distance, but apparently "some debris" was found off the coast of Australia), and now they fly a plane over a warzone.

 

While I do not care whose fault it is, I think the main culprit is the airline itself. Why would you fly directly over 2 countries with war tension going on?

Edited by Gary Oak

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The region was not a designated war zone. As a precaution, international civil aviation authorities referred to the area as restricted airspace between ground level and FL 320 (32,000 feet, or a shade under 10,000m). The Malaysian Airlines flight wanted to increase to FL 350 to save fuel, but Eurocontrol denied the clearance and requested they remain at FL 330. The Malaysian flight was outside the potential hazard zone as far as authorities were concerned.

 

In addition, KLM and Lufthansa flights were in the same area, less than 50km from where the incident occurred, just hours prior. None of those flights experienced any problems. Air France and British Airways are the only carriers in the world that have intentionally been avoiding Ukrainian airspace.

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This is what you get for arming unstable individuals with sophisticated weaponry. The blame rests solely on the Russians continuing the arm these men.

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It may be that I've not been following the news at all (there's a stack of unread newspapers) but I'm surprised by the lack of outrage on our part, considering more than half the passengers were Dutch. You know what, brb, reading the newspaper.

 

EDIT: I am indeed just out of the loop, there is a fair amount of outrage.

Edited by reepicheep

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It may be that I've not been following the news at all (there's a stack of unread newspapers) but I'm surprised by the lack of outrage on our part, considering more than half the passengers were Dutch. You know what, brb, reading the newspaper.

 

EDIT: I am indeed just out of the loop, there is a fair amount of outrage.

 

I hope your outrage and that of millions of Europeans culminates in the form of sanctions on Russia. The EU countries have been pretty tame with their stance of Russia so far. This should serve as a wake up call.

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Not exactly Breaking, but bad nonetheless. Tons of AIDS researchers on board too.

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The region was not a designated war zone. As a precaution, international civil aviation authorities referred to the area as restricted airspace between ground level and FL 320 (32,000 feet, or a shade under 10,000m). The Malaysian Airlines flight wanted to increase to FL 350 to save fuel, but Eurocontrol denied the clearance and requested they remain at FL 330. The Malaysian flight was outside the potential hazard zone as far as authorities were concerned.

 

In addition, KLM and Lufthansa flights were in the same area, less than 50km from where the incident occurred, just hours prior. None of those flights experienced any problems. Air France and British Airways are the only carriers in the world that have intentionally been avoiding Ukrainian airspace.

 

It should have been classified as a warzone I mean over 1,000 people have died in 3 months and planes have been shot out of the sky THIS WEEK. It seems pretty common sense to avoid the airspace. I just wonder why was it that on Monday the whole world listened to Kiev and kept report that Russia was involved in downing their plane and then blamed Russia for bombing an apartment building when it was clearly Ukraine that bombed it and killed 11 people. The excuse was the rebels only have portable SAM rockets that apparently could not reach the transport plane flying at 7,000 feet and three days later everyone is saying that the rebels have had a BUK system for a month if not more. I do agree it was almost 100% the rebels who shot it down but also it is clear it was an unfortunate accident and neither Russia or America are innocent when it comes to accidently shooting down airlines. The rebels have been heavily bombed day and night by the Ukrainian Air Force which Tuesday killed 11 civilians. The rebels should have exercised more caution and those responsible for this action should be brought to justice. It just sucks that the world allowed this conflict to escalate and now 300 innocent people are dead.

 

This is what you get for arming unstable individuals with sophisticated weaponry. The blame rests solely on the Russians continuing the arm these men.

 

To be fair there has been little proof unless I missed a report in the last 12 hours that says Russia gave the rebels the BUK system and it is most likely they captured it from Ukraine as they had multiple BUKS stationed there and the rebels bragged about capturing one long before this horrible tragedy. Sorry but the blame is not on Russia for everything. Russia and Ukraine both have BUKs and the proof thus far again unless anything changed in last 12 hours shows that rebels captured the BUK and not that the Russians gave it to them.

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I agree with above in that whether or not the airspace was considered safe, if missiles are being fired at planes it should be avoided. At least this might cool down the Ukrainian situation a bit.

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With regards to planes flying over a warzone; That's one of the reasons why we should be suspecting the rebels. Firstly, the rebels have been shown to be very eager to bring down planes over that area. Secondly, commercial airliners/civilian aircraft planes communicate to secondary surveillance radars on the ground by identifying themselves and their altitude via encoded radio data (Identification friend or foe code). Any professional military with a modest radar unit would have seen the plane giving out a civilian signature. Ukrainian air traffic control would have attempted to contact the plane if they were uncertain of it's origin/status and they certainly wouldn't have suspected it being Russian considering it's flightpath which they would have been tracking.

 

This indicates that an unprofessional military forces with shizzlety air-traffic and radar capabilities are responsible. Are there any such things nearby? Yes! The Russian armed rebels!

 

The British and the Americans are both saying that the shots came from rebel occupied territories. It's also highly suspicious how the rebels are turning away foreign observers and are reportedly destroying evidence.

 

Lastly, this audio intercept.

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...d-asia-28363169

 

The separatists did this. Putin has the blood of nearly 300 people on his hands for arming/backing these cretins. It's time Europe slaps sanctions on those thugs in the Kremlin and plunge Russia into a recession.

Edited by Phoenix Rider

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As soon as militants or some activist group or someone with a pile of guns is trying to take over your country...i think it should be common knowledge that the rest of the world should not send planes over even a 'potential' warzone. Shouldn't have to be even a thought about it, should be an automatic thing. But the world listens to money, not common sense.

Edited by Iamyouronly

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With regards to planes flying over a warzone; That's one of the reasons why we should be suspecting the rebels. Firstly, the rebels have been shown to be very eager to bring down planes over that area. Secondly, commercial airliners/civilian aircraft planes communicate to secondary surveillance radars on the ground by identifying themselves and their altitude via encoded radio data (Identification friend or foe code). Any professional military with a modest radar unit would have seen the plane giving out a civilian signature. Ukrainian air traffic control would have attempted to contact the plane if they were uncertain of it's origin/status and they certainly wouldn't have suspected it being Russian considering it's flightpath which they would have been tracking.

 

This indicates that an unprofessional military forces with shizzlety air-traffic and radar capabilities are responsible. Are there any such things nearby? Yes! The Russian armed rebels!

 

The British and the Americans are both saying that the shots came from rebel occupied territories. It's also highly suspicious how the rebels are turning away foreign observers and are reportedly destroying evidence.

 

Lastly, this audio intercept.

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...d-asia-28363169

 

The separatists did this. Putin has the blood of nearly 300 people on his hands for arming/backing these cretins. It's time Europe slaps sanctions on those thugs in the Kremlin and plunge Russia into a recession.

 

The blood is equally spread to Kiev they sent a plane into a warzone, it was their missile that shot it down as the rebels took the BUK from the Ukrainians. It has been Kiev that kept saying the only way to have peace talks is if rebels surrender. Why would rebels surrender when Ukraine keeps calling them terrorists and that they would all be thrown in jail if they committed "serious crimes". Who defines serious? Kiev. This was all before the airliner went down. I do agree it was the rebels and that those actually responsible should be brought to justice but the downing of military planes in a war zone is not a crime (referring to the transport planes). The Ukrainian army are equally cretins as they have killed far more than 300 innocent people. They killed 11 Tuesday when someone thought it wise to blow up an apartment building. What does Ukraine do? Blame Russia!

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Of course Ukraine blames Russia. Putin is engaged in a proxy campaign against Ukraine to try to take oil supply lanes so he can bend Europe to his will. He's spending amounts of money that Ukraine can't compete with. It's difficult to take on a mob boss.

 

Here's what's so striking about this particular incident to me, though: Putin's never really made any bones about idolizing Yuri Andropov, former director of State Security (and indeed, Putin's superior during his own time in the KGB). Andropov had an incident very similar to this in 1983, the shootdown of Korean Air Flight 007. In that instance, Andropov reacted by trying to create misinformation around the idea that the plane was a spy plane from the US. In this case, Putin's people are trying to rewrite the story of Malaysian Airlines to make it sound like Ukrainians shot the plane down, even though the missile came from rebel territory and Ukraine lost all of its long-range SAMs in the region around Donetsk almost a month ago.

 

It's incredible to me that Putin is so short-sighted that he would make such a gamble on this, when it's going to invariably end with the house of cards crashing on top of him.

Edited by Thomas Jefferson

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I wouldn't be surprised if someone at Malaysia Airlines commits suicide, two disasters in one year. Terrible stuff,

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To be fair there has been little proof unless I missed a report in the last 12 hours that says Russia gave the rebels the BUK system and it is most likely they captured it from Ukraine as they had multiple BUKS stationed there and the rebels bragged about capturing one long before this horrible tragedy. Sorry but the blame is not on Russia for everything. Russia and Ukraine both have BUKs and the proof thus far again unless anything changed in last 12 hours shows that rebels captured the BUK and not that the Russians gave it to them.

Right, just like those T-64s that disappeared from an arms depot in Russia and somehow materialized in rebel hands in Donetsk the next day? Were those stolen from the Ukrainians too?

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The Ukrainians stole them from the Russians, threw them into a warp machine, they warped into Ukrainian tanks in Donetsk, then the rebels stole them using their magic sticky finger powers.

 

That is clearly what happened I cannot believe you are not getting this.

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What does Ukraine do? Blame Russia!

Well duh, Russia is responsible for the whole situation. More specifically Putin. Russia isn't fighting for the "freedom" of the Russian population living in Ukraine, they're sponsoring "rebels" (read Russian mercenaries, because it's what they really are at this point) in an attempt to regain the control of Ukraine they lost when the Ukrainian rebels (the actual Ukrainian rebels, the real population of the country) kicked out the corrupt Kremlim-controled puppet president. Worse, it seems Putin now wants certain parts of Ukraine to belong to Russia. It is all ego-driven, Putin wants his name in the history books. He wants to be some sort of last conqueror, the man who brought new land under control of the Russian empire. He had already attempted something similar in Georgia, but it didn't go the way he wanted.

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I wouldn't say the entire pro-Russian separatist movement is astroturfed, but there are a lot of "separatists" who are very obviously mercenaries. Actual pro-Russian separatists wouldn't be wearing all this random privately-sourced camouflage etc. Actual pro-Russian seps are wearing Ukrainian or Russian camo, if they're not wearing that it's pretty likely they're mercs.

 

It's really not hard to pick out mercs in press photos.

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And this coming in due to an update:

 

Vostok Brigade admits Ukrainian rebels have Buk systems

 

They are, of course, insistent that it is somehow Ukraine's fault, because apparently Ukraine is supposed to do nothing to stop separatist elements within their own borders.

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