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Dreak

Christian genocide by IS (Islamic state)

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All this pragmatism is disgusting. American lives wont be lost but you forget the life of an American is no more valuable than the life of a Kurd. Yes genocide and war will always happen does that mean we do nothing? Rape and murder will likely never stop so why waste money and resources prosecuting rapists and murderers?

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All this pragmatism is disgusting. American lives wont be lost but you forget the life of an American is no more valuable than the life of a Kurd. Yes genocide and war will always happen does that mean we do nothing? Rape and murder will likely never stop so why waste money and resources prosecuting rapists and murderers?

Well the whole point of a country is that it values its citizens first. So to America, yes an American life is more valuable.

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All this pragmatism is disgusting. American lives wont be lost but you forget the life of an American is no more valuable than the life of a Kurd. Yes genocide and war will always happen does that mean we do nothing? Rape and murder will likely never stop so why waste money and resources prosecuting rapists and murderers?

When the US intervenes in Ukraine, they are backing a corrupt government.

 

When the US fails to intervene in Iraq, they are supporting rapists and murderers.

Edited by theking1322

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All this pragmatism is disgusting. American lives wont be lost but you forget the life of an American is no more valuable than the life of a Kurd. Yes genocide and war will always happen does that mean we do nothing? Rape and murder will likely never stop so why waste money and resources prosecuting rapists and murderers?

When the US intervenes in Ukraine, they are backing a corrupt government.

 

When the US fails to intervene in Iraq, they are supporting rapists and murderers.

 

If evidence shows up that Yanukovich or the rebels are crucifying and beheading children and women and massacring entire villages then I will fully support US intervention. Nice try though buddy.

 

Ukraine is committing war crimes against its civilians as are the rebels but I do not support a government that has massacred 1000 of its own citizens for not agreeing with the government especially a government formed by protesters.

 

Look at the Bosnian Genocide, before America intervened there were widespread massacres then the US and NATO begin strategic air strikes and the genocide winds down. How can a civilized and just society sit back and watch barbarians massacring and torturing people and not do a thing? US support for the coup in Kiev was all about gaining access to the natural gas reserves in Donbass (see Joe Biden's son holding a high position in the largest Ukrainian energy company) and about encircling Russia on all sides with enemies. Intervention in Iraq is about stopping barbaric scum like the Islamic State from murdering not just entire villages but entire cultures.

 

Edit: Not to mention the condition for the rise of the Islamic State are largely due to the US policy of nation building that failed in Iraq and is failing in Afghanistan. We are responsible for the mess in Iraq because of our misconceived notion of building nation states loyal to us.

Edited by The Truth

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Look at the Bosnian Genocide, before America intervened there were widespread massacres then the US and NATO begin strategic air strikes and the genocide winds down. How can a civilized and just society sit back and watch barbarians massacring and torturing people and not do a thing? US support for the coup in Kiev was all about gaining access to the natural gas reserves in Donbass (see Joe Biden's son holding a high position in the largest Ukrainian energy company) and about encircling Russia on all sides with enemies. Intervention in Iraq is about stopping barbaric scum like the Islamic State from murdering not just entire villages but entire cultures.

 

Edit: Not to mention the condition for the rise of the Islamic State are largely due to the US policy of nation building that failed in Iraq and is failing in Afghanistan. We are responsible for the mess in Iraq because of our misconceived notion of building nation states loyal to us.

Okay cool, but America is already doing air strikes so I don't know what you're complaining about.

 

The edit is pretty funny. America is somehow responsible for the rise of IS, because it successfully brought an end to the 20 year dictatorship that had killed a million of its inhabitants, along with torturing that includes: "...assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes." And it's still responsible for the rise of IS all while it has:

  • kept insurgents at bay (while occupying the country)
  • completed over 5000 projects (valued at $8.8 billion) to improve Iraqi infrastructure
  • trained and supplied the Iraqi military to be equipped for when America leaves (which, as you'll see turned out terribly because the Iraqi military is pathetic and allows its own weapons to be captured by IS)
  • helped create a constitution that embraced democracy without overstepping traditional Muslim values (which allowed a parliamentary election to be held in 2005, the FIRST in the countries history)

And you have the gall to say this is America's fault? Your expectations are hilariously out of touch with reality. What other country has performed that much humanitarian aid? Nobody wants to even touch that fudgeed up part of the world. America gave it a pretty good chance to become something decent, but the Iraqi people have been unable to take care of themselves.

 

I seriously have no idea what you're asking for. You seem to have a problem with America's babysitting, now you want us to go and do it again. I'm not actually convinced you know what you want to happen in Iraq.

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Look at the Bosnian Genocide, before America intervened there were widespread massacres then the US and NATO begin strategic air strikes and the genocide winds down. How can a civilized and just society sit back and watch barbarians massacring and torturing people and not do a thing? US support for the coup in Kiev was all about gaining access to the natural gas reserves in Donbass (see Joe Biden's son holding a high position in the largest Ukrainian energy company) and about encircling Russia on all sides with enemies. Intervention in Iraq is about stopping barbaric scum like the Islamic State from murdering not just entire villages but entire cultures.

 

Edit: Not to mention the condition for the rise of the Islamic State are largely due to the US policy of nation building that failed in Iraq and is failing in Afghanistan. We are responsible for the mess in Iraq because of our misconceived notion of building nation states loyal to us.

Okay cool, but America is already doing air strikes so I don't know what you're complaining about.

 

The edit is pretty funny. America is somehow responsible for the rise of IS, because it successfully brought an end to the 20 year dictatorship that had killed a million of its inhabitants, along with torturing that includes: "...assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes." And it's still responsible for the rise of IS all while it has:

  • kept insurgents at bay (while occupying the country)
  • completed over 5000 projects (valued at $8.8 billion) to improve Iraqi infrastructure
  • trained and supplied the Iraqi military to be equipped for when America leaves (which, as you'll see turned out terribly because the Iraqi military is pathetic and allows its own weapons to be captured by IS)
  • helped create a constitution that embraced democracy without overstepping traditional Muslim values (which allowed a parliamentary election to be held in 2005, the FIRST in the countries history)

And you have the gall to say this is America's fault? Your expectations are hilariously out of touch with reality. What other country has performed that much humanitarian aid? Nobody wants to even touch that fudgeed up part of the world. America gave it a pretty good chance to become something decent, but the Iraqi people have been unable to take care of themselves.

 

I seriously have no idea what you're asking for. You seem to have a problem with America's babysitting, now you want us to go and do it again. I'm not actually convinced you know what you want to happen in Iraq.

 

I was referring to posters who said we should just ignore Iraq because it has always been fudged up. I supported the toppling of Hussein but the new government never had much support in the Sunni majority north of Iraq and it isolated many people who now sypathize with ISIS. Iraq is one of thr post colonial countries with aritifial borders that are larergly responsible for all this strife. Iraq should have been either split up into three more natural states: a sunni, shiite, and kurdish Iraq or had the three be autonomous much like Kurdistan is. Much of this ethnic strife is because the borders in the Middle East and Africa ignore the actual cultures and were drawn up by Europeans and gifted to allies.

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Even if the country were divided, the religious zealots from one will just try to conquer the rest of them. The same way IS is spreading across Iraq and Syria, and how it wants to further expand to cover the entire Levant region, going as far west as Cyprus.

 

The support of the Iraq war was already pretty low towards the end of occupation. I highly doubt many people would have been okay with dividing a large country at the demand of one country. Even when we have international committees decide on splitting countries there's a lot of growing pains that last well over half a century.

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Iraq could function under a confederal system, where the entire territory is encompassed by one country, but the sectarian regions are given a bit more power over their respective jurisdictions. It would ensure better security for all three major groups as well.

 

But, of course, at this point, it's crying over spilled milk and won't accomplish much. And besides, neocons hate the possibility that the American system isn't inherently exportable.

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Iraq should have been either split up into three more natural states: a sunni, shiite, and kurdish Iraq or had the three be autonomous much like Kurdistan is. Much of this ethnic strife is because the borders in the Middle East and Africa ignore the actual cultures and were drawn up by Europeans and gifted to allies.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't understand why this isn't the popular opinion.

oil

 

everyone wants the control over the oil

which is why the IS(IS) is invading the oil rich Kurdistan Iraq region

 

(and that's also why the US has a presence there and why it suddenly gives a damn about IS in the first place)

edit: (and France, and England and whoever else is suddenly involved)

Edited by Egghebrecht

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I agree wholeheartedly. I don't understand why this isn't the popular opinion.

 

It is a popular opinion ATM, especially the whole independent Kurdistan thing. That'll probably be the West's Plan B if this drags on and progress isn't made.

 

Even if the country were divided, the religious zealots from one will just try to conquer the rest of them. The same way IS is spreading across Iraq and Syria, and how it wants to further expand to cover the entire Levant region, going as far west as Cyprus.

 

The social and cultural cohesion of the Kurds will act as a buffer against such a thing. The Peshmerga can fight, especially with US air support. They've been planning for something like this since the mid-2000s. They'll be fine.

 

The Shia state that will emerge from our thought experiment will probably end up being a client state of Iran. It'll act as a buffer against ISIS (again, because of the social and cultural cohesion) but I'm worried that they may start brewing their own Shia version of the Islamist Kool-Aid if such a thing were to happen. We can be certain that it won't be anywhere as bat-s***t crazy as ISIS but any amount of the Islamist Kool-Aid is too much. Look at Turkey for example.

 

I would just like to add that on this day, 73 years ago, Saint Maximilian Kolbe died in a starvation cell in Auschwitz. He died because he volunteered to take the place of another man who was condemned to death. He died for his faith and because of his love for his fellow man. The fact that the same blind hatred and evil which killed him and millions now has free reign over large swathes of Iraq is an indictment on humanity.

Edited by Phoenix Rider

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oil

 

everyone wants the control over the oil

which is why the IS(IS) is invading the oil rich Kurdistan Iraq region

 

(and that's also why the US has a presence there and why it suddenly gives a damn about IS in the first place)

edit: (and France, and England and whoever else is suddenly involved)

Man, what hard-hitting analysis. I wish I was sharp enough to see it.

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I agree wholeheartedly. I don't understand why this isn't the popular opinion.

 

It is a popular opinion ATM, especially the whole independent Kurdistan thing. That'll probably be the West's Plan B if this drags on and progress isn't made.

Not a chance. The OA is still full of neocon idiots.

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I've never been afraid by hearing news about terrorist groups before. I would get infuriated of course, but never had I ever gotten "the shakes" or goosebumps or anything. ISIS did it though, big time. The beheading videos, or news of them since I didn't watch them, along with all this ruthless killing they've done; I'm terrified.

 

So yeah, I'm all for bombing them to oblivion. Say hey to Satan for me.

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