The Skiller Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Hello community, and those who frequent the debate room. I have known of Pascal's Wager for some time, and held steady thoughts on it since. Those thoughts, and note I am a practicing Catholic, are that Pascal is right with what he proposes, but extending off that, in no way do I believe people must be forced to agree with him or his wager. For those who are unaware, Pascal's Wager is this (paraphrased slightly): All humans bet their lives (and potential after lives) on the possibility of God existing or not existing. Now, assuming religious texts are correct, believing in God and following in his ways could provide infinite benefits following death, with only slight hindrances during life on Earth. Not believing in God could prove the opposite, a disastrous eternity in Hell, with infinite suffering. Therefore, because little sacrifice is made by believing in God, with infinite pleasure and reward from doing so (should God prove to exist), all should believe in God. If there is need of a shorter version, here: If you believe in God and He is real, you could be in Heaven all your life. If you don't, and he is real, you could be in Hell all your life. Believing in Him isn't too hard/doesn't cost too much, so why not do it for the possible reward? Now, without slandering any religions or persons, including Pascal, I would enjoy hearing the thoughts of all of you on this wager and the question: Why not believe in God? Reminder: Remain on topic, at least slightly. Quote
Fabio Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 i cant believe in something i dont know if it exists Quote
Shooter585 Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 While Pascal's Wager is "right" you shouldn't use as a reason to believe in God. I think you miss the point of Christianity/whatever religion if you do. If you are an avowed atheist I don't think Pascal's Wager will change your mind. Quote
Sobend Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Beliefs don't work that way. You can't just believe in something because it may be convenient later on. Quote
Micael Fatia Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Yeah I agree with Sobend, sounds silly as heck. If you don't believe you just don't believe, forcing yourself to believe simply because there's the possibility you'll gain something out of it when you die is a travesty. Fairly sure if the Christian God exists he is surely smart enough to distinguish between those who really believe and those who have trouble believing but try their best to believe or to at least be open to the whole idea of a superior being existing from those who don't believe but chose to call themselves Christian to gain something out of it in case they are wrong in the end. Also this is my personal belief but I prefer to think even if you are not Catholic Christian you'll still go to Heaven as long as you live your life in a way that pleases God. In other words If you're a good person you'll go to Heaven no matter what. I find it hard to accept great people won't go to Heaven to enjoy eternal happiness just because they were wrong about their beliefs, in the end we're all human with flaws and if God made us like Catholicism claims he surely knows better than anybody that we make mistakes. if God tells us to forgive eachother surely he can do the same. Quote
Mohorak Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 The concept is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that if there is a god, that they have to be the Judeo-Christian God, and that if you "believe" expecting something in return the outcome is the same as if you believe and worship without asking anything in return. Quote
The Skiller Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 The concept is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that if there is a god, that they have to be the Judeo-Christian God, and that if you "believe" expecting something in return the outcome is the same as if you believe and worship without asking anything in return. Is that not what belief in God is? For those who truly believe, many ask for God to watch over them, protect them from evil, give them strength. I understand these are not physical rewards but it stands within the same field as asking for a certain outcome, like you said. I mean, the Prayer of Our Father, which is one Catholics recite every mass contains a line that requests God to "deliver us from evil". Are we, we being believers in God, asking for something in return for our devotion to Him? Quote
reepicheep Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) My fundamental issue with Pascal's wager is that believing in God 'just in case' is very different from actually believing. Also this is my personal belief but I prefer to think even if you are not Catholic Christian you'll still go to Heaven as long as you live your life in a way that pleases God. In other words If you're a good person you'll go to Heaven no matter what. I find it hard to accept great people won't go to Heaven to enjoy eternal happiness just because they were wrong about their beliefs, in the end we're all human with flaws and if God made us like Catholicism claims he surely knows better than anybody that we make mistakes. if God tells us to forgive eachother surely he can do the same. While I'd certainly like to agree, Catholic dogma (and indeed, the majority of Christian dogma) would disagree with that. Some Christian sects such as the Unitarian Universalists believe in universal reconciliation, but few orthodox (not in the sense of the Eastern Orthodox church but the general definition of the word) churches would agree with that. There are people who will interpret John 14:6 more liberally, but I'd say that takes a bit of biblical gymnastics :P That's not to say that your belief is necessarily wrong, just that I'm fairly sure the Catholic church would disagree with you (although then again I'm probably not telling you anything you didn't know). Edited January 5, 2015 by reepicheep Quote
Micael Fatia Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Oh I know that, that's why I pointed out it was merely my personal belief. I choose to believe that God, if he exists, isn't a complete big muppet. :P Quote
Bwauder Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 The corollary extension of the wagers theory is that if "god/s" (choose your multiple & insert name/s here) is/are capable of providing eternal bliss & comfort in the (possible) afterlife why do they allow us to suffer the various cruelties & injustices of our confirmed current existance? This would be the main arguement held for those of us who choose to seek pleasures in the now & avoid wasting what time we have worshiping & seeking the ineffable possibilities. Quote
The Skiller Posted January 6, 2015 Author Posted January 6, 2015 The corollary extension of the wagers theory is that if "god/s" (choose your multiple & insert name/s here) is/are capable of providing eternal bliss & comfort in the (possible) afterlife why do they allow us to suffer the various cruelties & injustices of our confirmed current existance? I pondered this for quite some time in the past hour, and have come only to the conclusion that said "god/s" are not interfering with our lives here as they are seeing if we can fulfill their "requirements" whatever they may be, to reach eternal happiness in the end. Of course, with this being a possible answer, it defeats the idea of falsely believing in a deity as they (I would hope) be able to see through the thin veil of one's fake belief. Well played. Quote
William Howard Taft Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Pascal's Wager is just one big false dichotomy. To borrow from Armoured Skeptic: Maybe God is just kind of a good kitty! god who lets everyone in, regardless of whether or not they followed any commands he gave? Maybe God just lets nobody into heaven? Maybe God lets only certain people in but the people who wrote down the criteria fudged it up? There are more than two possibilities and Pascal's Wager only allows for no God or a God similar to various Abrahamic traditions. Quote
Phoenix Rider Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Pacal's Wager should never be used as evidence for the existence of God the same way that herbal vitamin supplement are no substitute for prescribed medicine. It's an interesting piece of logical reasoning but is but a fragment of a larger, unfinished Apology for Christian theism cut short by Pascal’s untimely death. Therefore, the Wager should be used as part of a wider argument in defence of Christian theism and not as a stand alone. That basically deals with the "Which God?". If used correctly as Pascal intended (i.e after a lengthy discussion on the Resurrection and historical foundations for the Christian truth claim), the only two choices available would be naturalism and Christian theism. The wager would then help push those still on the fence over to the Christian theist side. As Shooter said, it will do little to sway avowed atheists. My fundamental issue with Pascal's wager is that believing in God 'just in case' is very different from actually believing. Also this is my personal belief but I prefer to think even if you are not Catholic Christian you'll still go to Heaven as long as you live your life in a way that pleases God. In other words If you're a good person you'll go to Heaven no matter what. I find it hard to accept great people won't go to Heaven to enjoy eternal happiness just because they were wrong about their beliefs, in the end we're all human with flaws and if God made us like Catholicism claims he surely knows better than anybody that we make mistakes. if God tells us to forgive eachother surely he can do the same. While I'd certainly like to agree, Catholic dogma (and indeed, the majority of Christian dogma) would disagree with that. Some Christian sects such as the Unitarian Universalists believe in universal reconciliation, but few orthodox (not in the sense of the Eastern Orthodox church but the general definition of the word) churches would agree with that. There are people who will interpret John 14:6 more liberally, but I'd say that takes a bit of biblical gymnastics :P That's not to say that your belief is necessarily wrong, just that I'm fairly sure the Catholic church would disagree with you (although then again I'm probably not telling you anything you didn't know). Let's just make it clear that Catholic dogma doesn't rule out the possibility for righteous people outside the Church to be saved. The Catholic Church understands that certain conditions may prevent a person being in full communion with the Church and that God is an infinitely good and merciful being who would not needlessly damn good people. This is reaffirmed in the documents of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium and Gaudium Et Spes along with the Catechism of the Catholic Church and recent comments by Pope Francis. The Church doesn't teach Universalism. The wicked shall face eternal justice. But that doesn't mean we preach the good being damned for being in the wrong Church. I AM SAL'S RESIDENT CATHOLIC. HEAR MY ROOOOAR! :P Edited January 6, 2015 by Phoenix Rider Quote
reepicheep Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Pacal's Wager should never be used as evidence for the existence of God the same way that herbal vitamin supplement are no substitute for prescribed medicine. It's an interesting piece of logical reasoning but is but a fragment of a larger, unfinished Apology for Christian theism cut short by Pascal’s untimely death. Therefore, the Wager should be used as part of a wider argument in defence of Christian theism and not as a stand alone. That basically deals with the "Which God?". If used correctly as Pascal intended (i.e after a lengthy discussion of the Resurrection and historical foundations for the Christian truth claim), the only two choices available would be naturalism and Christian theism. The wager would then help push those still on the fence over to the Christian theist side. As Shooter said, it will do little to sway avowed atheists. My fundamental issue with Pascal's wager is that believing in God 'just in case' is very different from actually believing. Also this is my personal belief but I prefer to think even if you are not Catholic Christian you'll still go to Heaven as long as you live your life in a way that pleases God. In other words If you're a good person you'll go to Heaven no matter what. I find it hard to accept great people won't go to Heaven to enjoy eternal happiness just because they were wrong about their beliefs, in the end we're all human with flaws and if God made us like Catholicism claims he surely knows better than anybody that we make mistakes. if God tells us to forgive eachother surely he can do the same. While I'd certainly like to agree, Catholic dogma (and indeed, the majority of Christian dogma) would disagree with that. Some Christian sects such as the Unitarian Universalists believe in universal reconciliation, but few orthodox (not in the sense of the Eastern Orthodox church but the general definition of the word) churches would agree with that. There are people who will interpret John 14:6 more liberally, but I'd say that takes a bit of biblical gymnastics :P That's not to say that your belief is necessarily wrong, just that I'm fairly sure the Catholic church would disagree with you (although then again I'm probably not telling you anything you didn't know). Let's just make it clear that Catholic dogma doesn't rule out the possibility for righteous people outside the Church to be saved. The Catholic Church understands that certain conditions may prevent a person being in full communion with the Church and that God is an infinitely good and merciful being who would not needlessly damn good people. This is reaffirmed in the documents of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium and Gaudium Et Spes along with the Catechism of the Catholic Church and recent comments by Pope Francis. Interesting, I never knew that (though it doesn't necessarily surprise me). Just one more reason you guys are dirty heretics Quote
thepope1322 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 What if I chose to believe in the wrong god? You have no way of knowing, so just pick one. Even if there are a thousand gods, a 1/1000 chance is infinitely better than a 0/1000 chance. Quote
Yuanrang Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Pascal's Wager is very easy to partially answer, which really does not require a lot of thought. To find an answer on how to approach Christianity and its concept of Heaven, Hell and the decision of where to go, I think we should turn to the word of God, naturally retold by mankind through the Bible. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 1 Corinthians 7:14 The answer is that no matter whether or not you believe in God, you just need to find a Christian spouse and they will purify you through your marriage. This in turns solves the problem, since an atheist or religious person from any other religious faith, can easily believe whatever they choose and still be safe from the Christian God. That said, as an Atheist, I do not believe in the Christian "God", but I am grateful for him creating loopholes for atheists so they can not believe, and then still sneak into Heaven through the back door. That said, if the question in this topic was "Why not believe in God?", I would raise a retort: "Why should we waste time and effort in trying to believe in something we believe does not exist, when we can reap the benefits no matter what through the loophole?". Quote
Micael Fatia Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 That said, if the question in this topic was "Why not believe in God?", I would raise a retort: "Why should we waste time and effort in trying to believe in something we believe does not exist, when we can reap the benefits no matter what through the loophole?". Because if you don't Odin will come down from Asgard and rip you apart, what the hell Yuan I thought you were Norwegian you should know this. Quote
Yuanrang Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) That said, if the question in this topic was "Why not believe in God?", I would raise a retort: "Why should we waste time and effort in trying to believe in something we believe does not exist, when we can reap the benefits no matter what through the loophole?". Because if you don't Odin will come down from Asgard and rip you apart, what the hell Yuan I thought you were Norwegian you should know this. Are you saying Odin does not exist, Micael? Odin is named Odin, not God. It seems like you do not know His name. Edited January 13, 2015 by Yuanrang Quote
Sobend Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 That said, if the question in this topic was "Why not believe in God?", I would raise a retort: "Why should we waste time and effort in trying to believe in something we believe does not exist, when we can reap the benefits no matter what through the loophole?". Because if you don't Odin will come down from Asgard and rip you apart, what the hell Yuan I thought you were Norwegian you should know this. Don't forget Fenrir! It would be a shame if he devoured all of us just because of Yuanrang's ill actions! Quote
Yuanrang Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 That said, if the question in this topic was "Why not believe in God?", I would raise a retort: "Why should we waste time and effort in trying to believe in something we believe does not exist, when we can reap the benefits no matter what through the loophole?". Because if you don't Odin will come down from Asgard and rip you apart, what the hell Yuan I thought you were Norwegian you should know this. Don't forget Fenrir! It would be a shame if he devoured all of us just because of Yuanrang's ill actions! Hey, out of everything one can find in Norse mythology, Fenrisulven is hardly the worst thing around, but I would be far more concerned about Fenris rather than the question of whether Heaven or Hell exist. :P Quote
20000_Posts Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 What if I chose to believe in the wrong god? You have no way of knowing, so just pick one. Even if there are a thousand gods, a 1/1000 chance is infinitely better than a 0/1000 chance. Maybe I'll start buying lottery tickets. 1/100,000 is infinitely better than 0/100,000. Or not because dividing by such large numbers gives you ~0 anyway. Quote
Sobend Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 What if I chose to believe in the wrong god? You have no way of knowing, so just pick one. Even if there are a thousand gods, a 1/1000 chance is infinitely better than a 0/1000 chance. Maybe I'll start buying lottery tickets. 1/100,000 is infinitely better than 0/100,000. Or not because dividing by such large numbers gives you ~0 anyway. The difference here though is that the lottery ticket is free. It's like you're getting offered a free lottery ticket and turning it down. Not defending Pascal's Wager by the way. Quote
Phoenix Rider Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Must....resist...urge to debate @Yuanrang on... Corinthians interpretation! Quote
Yuanrang Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Must....resist...urge to debate @Yuanrang on... Corinthians interpretation! Yeah, let us avoid doing that to spawn another religious side-debate. Though... You must admit that I do have an amusing interpretation of that particular passage! ...though that is religion in a nutshell: Interpretation of ancient beliefs. :P Quote
Phoenix Rider Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Must....resist...urge to debate Yuanrang on... Corinthians interpretation! Yeah, let us avoid doing that to spawn another religious side-debate. Though... You must admit that I do have an amusing interpretation of that particular passage! ...though that is religion in a nutshell: Interpretation of ancient beliefs. :P I would just like to let everyone know that if anyone is looking to marry a Christian and guarantee his/herself eternal salvation, I'm single, willing and sexually repressed. Plus Catholicism is like the Admiral's Club of Christianity. Yeah, you can reach heaven by marrying any run-of -the-mill Christian (ahem...@reepicheep...*cough* *cough*) but I'll get you there in style. :D Quote
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