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Petition to unban Benno and Swarley


zooey

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As someone who's always been absent from the background scenes, I'm curious to what degree (and in what cases) a ban is upheld over time

If someone has 7 infractions for being obnoxious, isn't there some kind of of "statute of limitations" that logically should play forward - or maybe "could" where you have a community like this, where our relationships largely already exist and bans may begin to exclude people based on mistakes they made in their childhood. I'd understand with something serious like pornography or threatening members. I'm aware too people could have bothered staff to have their warn levels decreased, but that always felt like such an ask and nepotism incarnate to me

I know communities that would automatically decrease warn levels over time.. It's been almost 12 years since Dwarrior was banned. It seems almost childish (or dare I say, like holding a grudge?) to say no I won't let you back in because you bothered me when you were 16. Are we a golf club? We played a video game..

from an outsider's perspective. Those are my two cents after reaching out to Dwar and inviting him.

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9 hours ago, Sobend said:

They can both submit appeals to have their bans lifted.

They cannot. That system is only for those banned prior to the revised warning system. When that system went into place, it had the appeal concept baked into the added8th warning level. Both of these two were banned after that system, so neither would qualify.

 

19 hours ago, Zooey said:

As someone who's always been absent from the background scenes, I'm curious to what degree (and in what cases) a ban is upheld over time

Bans are permanent and has always been so. The only two exceptions to this has been:

 

  1. When we transitioned over from InvisionFree to IPB in November 2005. Only the extreme offenders were re-banned, being hackers, people posting porn and scammers. The rest was pretty much unbanned without much censorship.
  2. When we revised the warning system to go from +7 to +8, adding in-baked suspensions at +6 and +7 to give people a time to think about their consequences.
    • This lead to anyone who was at +7 prior to this change (yet not banned after) could theoretically appeal their status after they had been banned for an equivalent time to the suspension given at +7.


Beyond that, a ban has always been permanent.

 

19 hours ago, Zooey said:

If someone has 7 infractions for being obnoxious, isn't there some kind of of "statute of limitations" that logically should play forward - or maybe "could" where you have a community like this, where our relationships largely already exist and bans may begin to exclude people based on mistakes they made in their childhood.

Yes, there actually is! When we revised the warning system, it was because we realized exactly this.  :tongue:

With the revised system, we added a month suspension when reaching +6, and 9 months at +7, just to give people the chance to understand what "permanent" meant and also felt like. The idea was mainly that people realized "Hey, 9 months away was not fun, and I still want to be a part of this place. I will behave.". In my experience, it worked pretty well. A lot of people worked themselves down a few warning levels in the first few months after returning, and then the problem went away. Very few people actually pushed the boundaries after hitting +6, and almost no one did at +7 unless they either did not care, or they wanted to prove a point.

 

19 hours ago, Zooey said:

I'm aware too people could have bothered staff to have their warn levels decreased, but that always felt like such an ask and nepotism incarnate to me

Honestly, it was pretty easy to get a decrease.

The only real requirement for a reduction was that they would have to actually be somewhat active and post (so you could not be absent for a month, return, request, and go away again). It had a very low bar of entry, or it was supposed to. However, the member in question had to actually care about their future on Sal's enough to actually bother message a moderator or an administrator though. 

In light of the nepotism aspect of it, I concur with you to some extent. I never gave out consecutive warning reductions to the same member in following month. If I granted a warning reduction to a member, and they asked me again the next month, I would send them to one of the other Staff members to do a review, so it was more fair for everyone. I think most of the Staff actually ended up that, because it was just a tidy way of reducing warnings, and avoid people taking advantage of friendships.

 

19 hours ago, Zooey said:

know communities that would automatically decrease warn levels over time..

My memory is a bit fuzzy here, but I believe we ran into some issues with having that functionality at the time because Sal could not get it to work with some of the other modules the forum used. The warning review idea is us manually doing this, because we could not automate it, but we still wanted that type of a feature. (Or it was because we wanted control over it, I really do not remember which. I think it could have been a bit of both? :unsure: )

 

19 hours ago, Zooey said:

It's been almost 12 years since Dwarrior was banned. It seems almost childish (or dare I say, like holding a grudge?) to say no I won't let you back in because you bothered me when you were 16. Are we a golf club? We played a video game..

I think I will start by saying what I told Dwarrior yesterday, and say that I am not 100% comfortable with what I am going to say soon. On some level, I feel bad about what I am going to say now, because I understand that people do change and grow into a different person than they were in the past. Regardless, here goes:



Actions have consequences. Permanent does in fact mean "forever", and this was the deal we all signed up to when we joined this forum. Our warning system was a fairly extensive and lenient system of checks and balances to ensure people realized there would be consequences. I would say that if you are smart enough to join a forum, you are smart enough to understand what that entails, and if not, it was the Staff's job to explain that to people.


I am, however, going to say this: Yes, it was a video game, but the people behind each and every of these accounts were real people with emotions. One of the harshest wake-up calls I have had on Sal's was when I was 18, and one of our former DMs was reported to have killed themselves because of bullying. He was black, living in a very white Europe at the time, and apparently that lead to constant bullying and violence towards him while growing up.

Why was he demoted? Well, someone made racist remarks in some random thread, and he went ballistic. When he was demoted, he got himself banned quickly, and then he just left the forum and faded into obscurity, leaving RuneScape, IRC and Sal's. About a year or so after that, he commited suicide for the exact same reason for why he left this place: Someone pushed him over an edge on a bad day, hurling out racist remarks that hit too close to home.

People have feelings. People have issues and baggage that they carry with them. Perhaps people that escape to video games for a sense of freedom and community are more prone to have more baggage than the rest of the population, I do not know. What I do know, however, is that the people that ended up trolling and flaming did not care a single bit about the people on the other side of those accounts, or worse: They knew people had a rough time, and deliberately kept on goading people to make their lives miserable "for the lolz".

Yeah, maybe they regret it a decade later, and they almost certainly have changed and matured since then, but that is no excuse. That does not remove the pain and distress they caused for others when they honestly should have known better. A teenager, while short-sighted, is not that dumb. They are capable of understanding consequences and responsibility, and their lack of care about that just is no excuse. Tens of thousands of people managed to follow the rules just fine.

 

I am sure many people are not a threat to anyone, anymore, and would cause no pain now, but you know what? That is too bad for them, because they made very poor choices in the past. If people want to reconnect, I will say to them as I said to Dwarrior yesterday: Try the Discord! I have no idea how that is moderated, but I imagine there's no need for much moderation there, and you still get to catch up with old friends. :tongue:

 

This place, however, is actually still moderated, and I am not lowering standards just to bring back anyone who wants to return, simply because people were hurt and alienated. I genuinely feel bad about now having to go and ban Dwarrior after posting this reply, but at the same time, it is the right way to do. I have only the best wishes to give Dwarrior, and I hope he gets to have fun times on Discord with old friends, but.. this archived forum shall remain closed to him. That is sadly justice, and... well... while I do not really hold grudges anymore, I am still extremely justice-driven. :cute: 

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15 hours ago, Yuanrang said:

The only real requirement for a reduction was that they would have to actually be somewhat active and post (so you could not be absent for a month, return, request, and go away again). It had a very low bar of entry, or it was supposed to. However, the member in question had to actually care about their future on Sal's enough to actually bother message a moderator or an administrator though. 

I'll just add that I was warned countless times over the years, but I made sure to never go above a level 1 warning. What separates me from someone who had the same amount of warns but ended up banned?

 

I don't think the banning question is that important, given we have an active Discord where people can connect with old forumers to their hearts content, but it does make me sad that we can't leave the past behind us and connect with one another through our shared experience of partly growing up on a RuneScape forum. It is very hard for me to remember the exact dynamic I used to have with people back in 2005-2012, and that dynamic shifted over the years (especially when my main focus was on a community-based webcomic). All I know if I am excited to see any face that I recognize when they find their way to the Discord, and the nostalgia of posting on the forums themselves is something we can all appreciate. If it were up to me, I'd just unban anyone who didn't do anything legitimately illegal. But it's not up to me.

 

Those are my two cents. I recognize that staff members had a much different experience on the forums, and Yuan and I have talked at length about this. If nothing else this is more of a thought exercise since the stakes are low. Do you continue to apply the old forum standards even as the purpose of the forum has shifted? Obviously I don't think so, but I am also a lower than dirt trol.

Edited by Adam?
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1 hour ago, Adam? said:

I'll just add that I was warned countless times over the years, but I made sure to never go above a level 1 warning. What separates me from someone who had the same amount of warns but ended up banned?

You know, I just went through your warning log since you asked, and I must say.. well, that was a read. Your warning log is like a card where you try to collect all the various stamps of the Staff. :xd: 

 

Hmm.. if I am to answer it how I see it through your warning log and past behaviour, I would say this: The key difference is that you cared enough to actually want to stay on the forum. I will be clear about this. You were usually a positive and constructive force on this forum, and way larger than what would be expected for anyone to earn a warning reduction. If people was just a fraction of how you usually were, they too would have earned reductions. Did you do unnecessary things that you got warned for? Apparently so, but you did not overdo it, and... well, I imagine you were mostly in full control over your warning log at all times.

I do believe you are probably not a very good comparison though, because the only thing that really stopped you from being promoted further, was that you went inactive. You obviously cared about the forum, and it was hard to not recognise that. :tongue: 

 

1 hour ago, Adam? said:

it does make me sad that we can't leave the past behind us and connect with one another through our shared experience of partly growing up on a RuneScape forum.

I do concur about this to some extent, which is why I genuinely felt, and still feel, bad about Dwarrior, and I tried to convey that to him. I have no ill will towards Dwarrior, I wish him the best, and I do hope Discord can be a good replacement for him. 

 

2 hours ago, Adam? said:

It is very hard for me to remember the exact dynamic I used to have with people back in 2005-2012, and that dynamic shifted over the years (especially when my main focus was on a community-based webcomic). All I know if I am excited to see any face that I recognize when they find their way to the Discord, and the nostalgia of posting on the forums themselves is something we can all appreciate. If it were up to me, I'd just unban anyone who didn't do anything legitimately illegal. But it's not up to me.

I can speak from a personal point of view. Some names, I would desperately want to unban just because.. well I miss them, and I am still annoyed they decided to get themselves banned, but I would not unban them either, simply because it is wrong. Some people I have just forgotten about, and I think Dwarrior somewhat falls into that category, as I did not have a strong negative feeling at all about him, but I have forgot who he was out of his friend group. Then you have the third group, which is the people I remember vividly being a problem, or that intentionally went in to hurt people and I remember that. Benno, as he was mentioned in this thread, falls into this category.

 

2 hours ago, Adam? said:

Do you continue to apply the old forum standards even as the purpose of the forum has shifted? Obviously I don't think so, but I am also a lower than dirt trol.

This is a very interesting question, and 10 years ago, I would have said "Rules are rules" and thought it would have been as simple as that, but it is not. :cute:  

In today's situation, things have obviously changed. Enforcing e.g. the bump rules nowadays is outright moronic, but I do believe we should still have some standards. If I am to be specific, then I would say this: Dwarrior got banned in the end because he decided to be very rude to another forum member. I would rather have the victim return and feel welcome, than to have Dwarrior return, and ignore how flaming and racism got him banned a decade ago. I do not for a second think that Dwarrior would do that now, but some people do not forget or forgive easily. I, for one, do not. It is probably the core reason why I am justice-driven, because I know without that, I would have been banned a long time ago with my short fuse. :box: 

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I get Yuan’s point that rules are rules and rules have consequences. But, this is a relatively dead forum. I don’t see the practical point in preventing previously banned people who want to participate in the forum in 2023 from participating in order to protect the feelings of a member or members who might have been trolled or bullied a decade plus ago if that member or those members aren’t active on the forum in 2023. I have no idea why Dwar was banned and I really don’t care. I’d just like to think everyone who used this forum a decade plus ago are now adults and have grown into completely different people than they were when they were still kids (this statement excludes @Aabid who is now 14). Continuing to punish people for their actions from 10+ years ago on a forum that has little to no activity just seems unnecessarily harsh and a little silly. 
 

edit: I’d also like to point out I agree with Adam’s point about the total warm count. I have 8 warns that increased my warn count. Only reason I am not banned from the forums is because I behaved for a few weeks AND asked a mod to reduce my warns. Is there any point in time that Dwar behaved and could have had his total earns reduced but the only reason why that didn’t happen is because he did not request it from a mod? And, if the answer is yes (or even maybe), why is his failure to ask for a warn reduction 10+ years ago now being held against him in 2023 when he wants to be part of the community again?  

Edited by bros before hoes
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6 hours ago, bros before hoes said:

I’d also like to point out I agree with Adam’s point about the total warm count. I have 8 warns that increased my warn count. Only reason I am not banned from the forums is because I behaved for a few weeks AND asked a mod to reduce my warns

Well, if anything, I would say that means the system we made works as intended. I cannot speak to your motivations in the past, but it seems to me that you learned to value time here as more important than the prospect of being banned. It seems to me that the probability for you doing more warnable offenses would have been higher, if we had not given out infractions or had bans as a punishment.. 

 

6 hours ago, bros before hoes said:

I’d also like to point out I agree with Adam’s point about the total warm count. I have 8 warns that increased my warn count. Only reason I am not banned from the forums is because I behaved for a few weeks AND asked a mod to reduce my warns. Is there any point in time that Dwar behaved and could have had his total earns reduced but the only reason why that didn’t happen is because he did not request it from a mod? And, if the answer is yes (or even maybe), why is his failure to ask for a warn reduction 10+ years ago now being held against him in 2023 when he wants to be part of the community again?  

Well, I will answer your main question first. I checked his activity through the Admin Control Panel and looked it up for you, which was way more time consuming than I would like on a Friday evening, so I will not do this again. I just think it is smart to be transparent about this. :ice: 

For reference, Dwarrior was suspended from 23.04.2011 to 23.01.2012. His ban occured on 12.08.2012, meaning he had 202 days after being suspended, or more accurately 6 months and 20 days. He obviously did not request a warning review, but you ask if he could have gotten one?

In those 202 days, he logged onto the forum 15 times. In that time, he voted in 1 poll, sent 1 personal message, wrote 6 blog comments, made 3 blog entries and made 7 posts. As per the rules, it is positive posting that was the criteria to be able to request a warning review.

 

The 7 posts were made on the following dates:

  1. Two posts made on the August 11th, one of which earned him his final warning.
  2. Two made on the August 10th
  3. One made on July 11th
  4. One made on June 6th
  5. One made on May 23rd

If I am going to be honest, I would say that would be considered way too inactive to be granted a warning reduction. The activity is way too sporadic, and there is no proof of him having learned to positively interact with the community over time (IE: Proven that he can behave or change his ways). Even if he had asked, he would have been declined and told to be more active within the community as one post per month (on average) would never have been acceptable.

 

Now, to answer your final question in the event the answer had been "Yes", I will say it like this:

Dwarrior is not a member of the community. The ban was, effectively, our form of capital punishment to protect the community as a whole. That remains a fact 10+ years after the punishment, because permanent is permanent. It is a consequence he, and others, will have to live with. You might not like it, but you yourself certainly understood the consequences, considering you worked hard on avoiding being banned. You understood there was a finality to it, and there was a line that one should not cross.

Dwarrior, and everyone else that reached +8, never did. Whether or not they understand it 10 years after the ban is frankly irrelevant to this forum, because they are dead to us. However, it is a great thing for them in their current lives, because them now understanding consequences is an important life skill to know.

Edited by Yuanrang
Fixed some language errors in the final two paragraphs to make the post easier to understand.
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image.thumb.png.f1b65932e74bb092a3297362da4b38c8.png

I think you present some very valid points, but when you read them all out it sounds like you may be cherrypicking and have a background history with Dwarrior (perhaps unrelated to his ban, you have shared lots of what I thought was private staff-only member history here..) and I wonder if you are not being truly impartial?

I think the man that acts the same all his life is a fool - but the man who listens to those around him, his equals, who knows? :cute: Maybe he might make some friends?


"A teenager, while short-sighted, is not that dumb." Hahaha oh my gosh dude. I know I'm a year or two younger than Dwar but I had my head crushed from decisions I made on this website when I was seventeen here. Please put yourself in not-all-seeing-Yuanrang's-shoes for just a second.

"because they are dead to us", who is the "us" in this sentence? :confused: Back in my day Don, Lilshu, Xaria, any admin never just called people dead banned or no. What on earth, man?
 

EDIT: I appreciate your verbosity but I have a job - if you don't agree with me could you reply in one-to-three paragraphs please? Word limit to 500, TeX? I'd love to chat with you like a real person. :tongue:

Edited by Zooey
Uploading my dope image I stole
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7 hours ago, Zooey said:

I think you present some very valid points, but when you read them all out it sounds like you may be cherrypicking and have a background history with Dwarrior (perhaps unrelated to his ban, you have shared lots of what I thought was private staff-only member history here..) and I wonder if you are not being truly impartial?

I am going to be honest with you and say I am surprised by this particular part of your post. :blink: 

My intention was not to cherry-pick and paint Dwarrior in a bad light at all, and I do not think I did that either. All I did was point out that he was not very active in the period after he was unsuspended and on +7. I could have easily summed up my answer with "Less than a post a month, doth not a warning reduction giveth", but I figured that such a response could easily be seen as biased. I figured that, by actually showing the statistics, it would be easier to understand why I said he could not have gotten the warning reduction. I imagine me responding "No" or "You do not get to know that" would have caused more frustration, if not for you, then for @bros before hoes .

As for background history with Dwarrior... I will say this. I have warned him only once, and yes, I was the one that gave him the 8th and final warning. I want to go on record and say that the warning was pretty justified, and it did not leave any room for interpretation. I fail to see how moderating reported posts constitute me as being biased. That literally was what I was supposed to do as a Moderator. :cute: 


As for sharing information, I will say the following things:

  1. Staff can share information in public as a matter of public discourse and to clarify things.
  2. I would rather be accused of sharing information, instead of being criticised for being behind a conspiracy to keep people banned, by not adding to the discussion.
  3. I think I have been very respectful to Dwarrior as a person, and focused more on the actions, the statistics involved, and the reason for the 8th warning. 


Impartial? I suspect I am quite a bit more impartial than you are, @Zooey . It matters precious little to me as a person whether Dwarrior is unbanned or not. It would likely not affect my forum-visits at all. However, I imagine it would matter to you, and affect you. :tongue: 

 

8 hours ago, Zooey said:

I think the man that acts the same all his life is a fool - but the man who listens to those around him, his equals, who knows? :cute: Maybe he might make some friends?

 

Quote

“Mankind is made of two kinds of people: wise people who know they're fools, and fools who think they are wise.”

 :cute: 

 

8 hours ago, Zooey said:

"A teenager, while short-sighted, is not that dumb." Hahaha oh my gosh dude. I know I'm a year or two younger than Dwar but I had my head crushed from decisions I made on this website when I was seventeen here. Please put yourself in not-all-seeing-Yuanrang's-shoes for just a second.

I mean, my first response to you would be that I joined Sal's just after I had turned 17, so I have been in your shoes. I was still capable of controlling myself and behave. I am not a saint in real life, so it did not come naturally to me either. 

My second response is that it is shocking to me that you seemingly think a seventeen year old is too dumb to understand that actions has consequences, and is unable to adjust behaviour. That is a year short of being considered an adult. You might not be an expert at it, but you certainly understand it enough to be able to alter your behaviour if you want to.

My third response is that you learn this far earlier than the age of seventeen. I doubt Norwegian teens are superior to the rest of the world in this, but whenever students join our lower secondary school at the age of thirteen, they understand this already. They are also able to modify behaviour accordingly, regardless of diagnoses, background or situation. Some need to work on it to always be able to do it, but by and large, everyone knows how (unless they have a development issue preventing them). 

I am pretty sure Dwarrior was/is either smarter than, or not dumber than, these thirteen year old students of mine. :tongue: 

 

8 hours ago, Zooey said:

"because they are dead to us", who is the "us" in this sentence? :confused:

Ah, it was a reference to where I said that bans is our form of capital punishment, hence the "dead" reference. "Us" here refers to the "community as a whole" part at the end of the capital punishment sentence. 

 

8 hours ago, Zooey said:

Back in my day Don, Lilshu, Xaria, any admin never just called people dead banned or no. What on earth, man?

It was an analogy where I compared our ban system with capital punishment, to make it easier to understand what the intention with the ban system is. We designed a system of checks and balances to avoid people actually reaching the point where they would be banned, in the same way that typically is the case with capital punishment. Was I not clear about any of this? :unsure: 

I am not wishing Dwarrior to be dead, or calling him that at all. :blink: 

 

8 hours ago, Zooey said:

EDIT: I appreciate your verbosity but I have a job - if you don't agree with me could you reply in one-to-three paragraphs please? Word limit to 500, TeX? I'd love to chat with you like a real person. :tongue:

Next time, add that to the top of the post so I do not write a long reply before I get to this part. :xd: 

I doubt I actually am able to do that though. I have always been known for making extensive posts. People used to call walls-of-text synonymously with my name. :cute: 

 

6 hours ago, bros before hoes said:

Let’s all just start a new game of mafia that lasts 10 years

Hmm, I wonder if that realistically would be possible.. :ohmy: 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/8/2023 at 9:56 PM, The Darkest said:

Can we unban daniel too?

yes if you reply to my message on IRC, I sent you a friend request

 

EDIT:
but we can't unban him here, definitely not here
this is @oranguwang's personal erotic memoir website now
only meant for his reading and his alone
u8aBMTZ.gifu8aBMTZ.gif

Edited by Zooey
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On 4/9/2023 at 4:56 AM, The Darkest said:

Can we unban daniel too?

I am willing to entertain the idea of gathering all our banned members to a seasonal Battle Royale event where they fight to the death with randomly supplied gear, but otherwise it would be a tough and slippery slope to decide where to draw any lines. From stalkers and creeps lusting for children, to santa hat scammers and flame spammers.

That is my long answer. I cannot type the first part of the reply I would like to post, as that is a shorter two-word answer to you. Since I cannot post that answer, I will just quote General McAuliffe's legendary reply to the Germans at Bastogne: "NUTS!" 

 

6 hours ago, Zooey said:

but we can't unban him here, definitely not here
this is @oranguwang's personal erotic memoir website now
only meant for his reading and his alone

I assure you.. Out of all the people roaming the forum, I think there are far more likely candidates still around that has a fetish involving RuneScape pixels, Rune Armor and farming experience than me! :cute: 

 I honestly would love it to change reality to have an active forum with hundreds of people visiting daily, posting and interacting. I miss the social aspect of Sal's, and the community experience (it is by far the best experience I have ever had community-wise), but I would make sure to step away from the customer-service aspect of moderating. My greatest lamentation is having to lose friendships because of it, and having to be so damn inflexible, but that is a long and complex psycho-analysis of myself that I should stay away from. :xd:

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On 4/21/2023 at 10:08 PM, bros before hoes said:

Truly the worst of the worst. 

I think you are making a joke about santa hat scammers being the worst of the worst, but.. I genuinely think that Bluefire was hated more from stealing Meen's santa hat, than the hate towards the creep that kept posting pictures of children (I have totally forgotten the name, who was it? :huh:  ) and sexualised them. Meen was an extremely great person, but.. having a creep trying to actively promote pedophilia was just infinitely worse. :sick:

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15 hours ago, Yuanrang said:

I think you are making a joke about santa hat scammers being the worst of the worst, but.. I genuinely think that Bluefire was hated more from stealing Meen's santa hat, than the hate towards the creep that kept posting pictures of children (I have totally forgotten the name, who was it? :huh:  ) and sexualised them. Meen was an extremely great person, but.. having a creep trying to actively promote pedophilia was just infinitely worse. :sick:

uh when was this happening? the pedo stuff I mean. I don't remember it at all

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2 hours ago, Adam? said:

uh when was this happening? the pedo stuff I mean. I don't remember it at all

2006 to 2008 would be the time, I think. The name eludes me, but it was a fairly known member who suddenly started posted pictures of girl in bathing suits and such, making very sexualized comments and what not about the content. It was just outright creepy, and commenting about it all, was just messed up.  :bann:

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  • 2 months later...

If it's worth anything I think Benn0 has actually matured a lot. It is no secret I was one of the people enforcing the rules the most when it came to Benn0 and his millions of alts, and I had a legitimate dislike for him. I am certain he'd be the first to admit he did a ton of things to deserve being disliked by me and many other staff members / DMs / chat mods etc; but I also attribute some of my dislike towards him to my younger age and lower tolerance towards people I perceived as nuisances.
The last time I got to interact with him was quite some years back already. After I quit my main account and RuneScape in general, including Sal's Realm, I had a brief return to OSRS to join the clan scene and Damage Incorporated. It didn't last very long, but it was still a month or two using mostly the now deceased RuneScape Community (Zybez).
During that time I got to interact with Benn0 again, who had been active for a while in RSC and had attained some sort of junior staff rank. He acknowledged he had done a ton of wrong things, and apologized maturely. By all means even if he was at fault for the things he did, he had all the rights in the world to absolutely hate me due to the manner I treated him.
I have no desire whatsoever to hide that even if I had the rules, reason and the moral high ground in treating him the way I did, I was also very harsh and was never shy of being vocal about how much I despised the old Benn0. I was a very influential community member at the time, and my views certainly weighted and influenced a lot of other members who looked up to me. Thus invertedly, I made people who barely knew who Benn0 was hate him like he had committed several grave offenses towards the family of these members.
Even so, Benn0 was more than happy welcoming me to RSC, chatting with me and clearing up the air between us. It would be a stretch to say we became 'friends' in the strict definition of the word, but I can say we are on good terms ever since, even if we haven't talked in years and years.
He also pushed for me to get a RSC MotM award, with PKPete's help, which was actually pretty cool of him. 

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As someone with the misfortune of interacting with him on the discord for an extended period of time, until he got himself banned there, I’d press back on “matured a lot” unless you’re still keeping him in the category of still-quite-toxic. It takes a special kind of person to get banned from the same fansite community twice a decade apart. 

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10 minutes ago, Synapsi said:

As someone with the misfortune of interacting with him on the discord for an extended period of time, until he got himself banned there, I’d press back on “matured a lot” unless you’re still keeping him in the category of still-quite-toxic. It takes a special kind of person to get banned from the same fansite community twice a decade apart. 

I can only speak from my experience with him which took place some years now. I'm not in the Sal's Discord nor have ever interacted with him there.
If he got banned there too then that's news to me as well.

Edit: I've been invited multiple times to join the Discord by now, but I've been resisting it for a while. As well intended the people inviting me are - and as much as I respect and like them - I've actually checked out the Discord a few years ago. I left the moment I saw who some of the 'staff' there were, which for all I know may be very different ones now and no longer the same people. They were hardly more mature than Benn0 back in the day.

Edited by King Mic
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